Dominant Agressive Puppy????

HOWEDY Bob,

Post by AuralFeast
I know I need advice -

You haven't been reading The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Forum, have you.

Post by AuralFeast
my kids are at stake.

INDEEDY.

You're asking dog abusers, liars, and MENTAL CASES
for help for problems they cannot train.

Post by AuralFeast
I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house, even if they can be
"trained" out.

All behavior problems are caused by mishandling.

You'd know that had you been reading.

Post by AuralFeast
Any experience with any of this?

The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Student's CURE their behavior
problems NEARLY INSTANTLY. CONSISTENTLY.

FOR FREE.

Post by AuralFeast
I'm calling the breeder tomorrow - any opinions this late at

night?

I do know that hitting, hurting
your dog will often make the
dog either aggressive or a fear
biter, neither of which we want to do.

And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!

And neither does anyone else,
Jerome. No matter
what Jerry Howe states.

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming Technique (STSA/BTCT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?

You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
individual. I feel very sorry for her
and her family.

"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.

BUT, giving you the benefit of the
doubt, please provide a quote (an
original quote, not from one of Jerry
Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
shows a regular poster promoting or
using an abusive form of training.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

I ENJOYED reading your book, and
AGREED with what you had to say.
I find it sick to hear what people
do with their dogs.

Keep in mind that everything he says that
the regular posters of this ng do to their
dogs are lies.
All of it. Every last bit.

All of it?
Ear pinching?
Shock collars?
Spiked chokers?
The regulars lie more in their denials than
Howe does in his accusing of them.

Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything?
Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
would see denials when everyone has Jerry
killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts,
let alone respond to them.

When you compare using sound and
praise to solve a problem with using
shock collars, hanging, and punishment
how can you criticize the use of sound?

There's nothing more to be said, then.
You've made up your mind.
But you've impressed me by mentioning
that you're a professor with 30 years of
experience.
So, can you cite some examples of
people recommending "shock collars,
hanging, and punishment"?

BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Post by AuralFeast
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

You think matty's playin with a full
goddamned deck?

matty's NOT a liar and dog abuser.

Isn't that true, Marilyn?

Of course not, but THIS IS:

"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.

Di,

I don't believe you mentioned a particular
kind of training. If you are interested in
training retrieval behavior than do
The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a
Well-Mannered, Obedient and
Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a
Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl

You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A
Dog I Do Not Believe There Is A Single
Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A
Dog Is Anything But Destructive,"

LUCKY thing CHIN CHUCK absolutely don't
mean slap the goddamned dog, we'd look like
a conspiracy of LIARS and DOG abusers if
CHIN CHUCK DID mean SLAP the dog.

"I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get
a good working dog by making them unhapper,
fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl.

DOES THAT SOUND LIKE THE TRUTH?

Post by AuralFeast
just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-
tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
--Marshall

Or HOWE about HOWER just plain CRUEL
STUPID and ABUSIVE DOG ABUSERS,
professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

amy lying frosty dahl continues:

"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome

Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
less tractable dogs may require you to
progress to striking them more sharply"

BUT NOBODY DOES THAT HERE...

"Try pinching the ear between the metal
casing and the collar, even the buckle on
the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will
give in but will squeal, thrash around, and
direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"

OR ATTACKING HIS ABUSER.

"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.

CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.

When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished

This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"

If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"

(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.

-snip headers etc.
Yes. you're right, I really should find
the book.. they don't have these books
in the local pet stores I frequent, where
do you find Koehler?

I got a nice large print copy from
Amazon.com
Richard

Please try Powell's Books in Portland
Oregon. Their URL is:

http://www.powells.com/

Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both
new and used books on its shelves. You
can order books via e-email.

Koehler Method Of Dog
Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK
HOUSE (0876056575,

========================================================

Here's some quotes and some methods right
outta your koehler book professor "SCRUFF
SHAKE and scream "NO!" into its face for 5
seconds:"

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York:
Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."

Hanging

"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar
and leash are more than adequate for any jerk
or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could
cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately
and fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab.

Before the teeth have reached their target,
the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.

As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned
problems the dog is suspended in mid-air.

However, to let the biting dog recover
his footing while he still had the strength
to renew the attack would be cruelty.

The only justifiable course is to hold him
suspended until he has neither the strength
nor inclination to renew the fight.

When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his
resentment and is lowered to the ground,
he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
over on his side.

The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
let it alarm you

THE REAL "HOOD"

"If your dog is a real "hood" who would
regard the foregoing types of protest as
"kid stuff" and would express his
resentment of your efforts by biting,
your problem is difficult -- and pressing.

"Professional trainers often get these
extreme problems. Nearly always the
"protest biter" is the handiwork of a
person who, by avoiding situations that
the dog might resent, has nurtured the
seeds of rebellion and then cultivated
the resultant growth with under correction.

When these people reap their inevitable
and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have
once rejected because it was incompatible
with the sugary droolings of mealy-
mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
and dog psychologists who, by the
broken skins and broken hearts their
misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
since the dawn of time.

"With more genuine compassion for the
biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
by those who are "too kind" to make a
correction and certainly with more disregard
for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major
operation."

"Since we are presently concerned with
the dog that bites in resentment of the
demands of training, we will set our
example in that situation. (In a later
chapter we will deal with the with the
much easier problem of the dog that
bites someone other than his master."

Are we havin FUN yet?

Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

The Puppy Wizard. <} : ~ ) >

Kaabooo

2003-09-13 04:13:30 UTC

Anyway, In the previous "answer" to the original post, I couldn't
undertstand what the hell the poster was trying to say... Is there some
strange 'inner circle' language in this group that I'm not privy to? Seems
to me like the poster started his "answer" by yelling and screaming about
some group of unknown others and their correction methods, then chastised
the person asking the question for not having read some "miracle manual"

dog obedience. I'm guessing that he ain't sellin' a product or service,

'cuz

if he was, he'd be livin' on peanut butter with that attitude.

Killfile the Puppy Wizard. Most of us do. Don't pay attention to him.

Anyway - to the OP - your dog isn't agressive. He's just being a puppy. He's
expoloring, learning, testing things out. If you watch puppies at play
you'll notice a lot of mouthiness.

When he goes too far, just make a loud "ouch" and make sure the game is
over. He'll learn you don't appreciate mouthiness.
Don't scold or yell of spank - that _will_ make him agressive.

Kate :o)

nichael

2003-09-13 04:36:14 UTC

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum, and was waiting for an answer to this thread in order
to educate myself. I'm funny like that....
Anyway, In the previous "answer" to the original post, I couldn't
undertstand what the hell the poster was trying to say... Is there some
strange 'inner circle' language in this group that I'm not privy to? Seems
to me like the poster started his "answer" by yelling and screaming about
some group of unknown others and their correction methods, then chastised
the person asking the question for not having read some "miracle manual" on
dog obedience. I'm guessing that he ain't sellin' a product or service, 'cuz
if he was, he'd be livin' on peanut butter with that attitude.
Would still love to hear a clear, professional, and concise answer to the
original poster's question, without all the indecipherable static.

okay.

watch this video. It's the best puppy no bite video on the web, or the
planet for that matter...

http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm
http://dogtv.com/kwame.rm

this is michael
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 13:15:09 UTC

HOWEDY me,

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum,

Didn't The Puppy Wizard tell you we got LIARS, DOG
ABUSERS and MENTAL CASES, you're askin for
advice for the same problems they got???

and was waiting for an answer to this thread in order
to educate myself. I'm funny like that....

You ain't gonna be gettin no goddamned answers from
HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards.

Anyway, In the previous "answer" to the original post, I

couldn't

undertstand what the hell the poster was trying to say...

Perhaps The Puppy Wizard gave you too much INFORMATION?

Is there some strange 'inner circle' language in this group that
I'm not privy to?

INDEED. It's called LIES ABUSE and MENTAL ILLNESS.

Seems to me like the poster started his "answer" by yelling
and screaming about some group of unknown others

HOWER DOG LOVERS?

and their correction methods,

They HURT and KILL dogs.

then chastised the person asking the question for not having
read some "miracle manual" on dog obedience.

No, that's false. The Puppy Wizard chastised the OP for
not having read HOWER FORUM or he woulda realized
he was asking LIARS and DOG ABUSERS and MENTAL
CASES for help with a behavior problem they cannot train
in their own dogs and would have studied his FREE copy
of The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual.

I'm guessing

Ain't no need for GUESSING. Every thing The Puppy
Wizard sez is in blackman and white in The Puppy
Wizard's Archives.

that he ain't sellin' a product or service,

FREE. Can you not understand FREE training?

'cuz if he was, he'd be livin' on peanut butter with that

attitude.

What's wrong with peanut butter?

Would still love to hear a clear, professional, and concise

answer

to the original poster's question,

HOWEDY ~emily,

We recently got a 3 year old Yorkie and brought him home.
We already had a 14 year old male cat, and now these two
are existing in mainly a cold war atmosphere that at times
escalates into a shooting war. Tonight they went at it in my

lap.

Jeez.
Could anybody offer any advice as to how to get these two to
at least tolerate each other?

Punish the dog for harassing the cat.

That'll make them HATE each other.

Allow the cat to punish the dog himself--

That could get the dog's eyes put HOWET or
get the kat DEAD.

provided he's not damaging it.

You're a MENTAL CASE, ~emily.

All my cats have been very good and not used claws
on the puppy, and he's coming to a new level of respect
for them.

YOU MEAN, YOU GOT THE SAME SAME PROBLEM.

(I'm sure once he finds out they have claws, too, there
will be no question about which one is the victor.)

You're a MENTAL CASE and a DOG ABUSER.

~Emily

without all the indecipherable static.

You mean this?:

I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?

"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.

No different tune," ~Emily

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 13:30:34 UTC

Here's HOWE The Puppy Wizard takes care

HOWEDY Group
Here some SUCCESS STORIES ive had using
JERRYS MANUAL
1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, agressive,
pulled on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw, fought
between each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerrys manual,
they were calm, friends, my companions.
2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK", the
girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the moment I
dropped him by their noses.
3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping at
the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRYS
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVENT BARKED ONCE!
Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND WELCOMED
HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !
4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH - lock
him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS AND
HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE !
5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT - HAD
TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK - ONE WEEK
ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR TOLD ME TO
PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS FOR SALE !
Quite amazing to - I thought they were just dull
coloured dogs, but after I had removed the fear
and anxiety their hairs coloured up amazingly.
6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER BALL!
She carried it around all day and night - 3 DAYS on Jerrys
MANUAL and she now DROPS it when u ASK her to!
BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!
Nevyn
Hi all,
I'm new to this forum, and was waiting for an answer to this

thread in order

to educate myself. I'm funny like that....
Anyway, In the previous "answer" to the original post, I

couldn't

undertstand what the hell the poster was trying to say... Is

there some

strange 'inner circle' language in this group that I'm not privy

to? Seems

to me like the poster started his "answer" by yelling and

screaming about

some group of unknown others and their correction methods, then

chastised

the person asking the question for not having read some "miracle

manual" on

dog obedience. I'm guessing that he ain't sellin' a product or

service, 'cuz

if he was, he'd be livin' on peanut butter with that attitude.
Would still love to hear a clear, professional, and concise

answer to the

original poster's question, without all the indecipherable

static.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 03:26:42 UTC

Here's the liars, dog abusers, and MENTAL CASES

Post by AuralFeast
Is my puppy normal? She's a field Golden, nine weeks old.
We've had her for two. I've got two small children.

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

Post by AuralFeast
================

lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
depression) will "put down a biter
as fast as anyone" yet claims to
be a saintly dog rescuer
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
---------------------------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
--------------------------------------

"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.

You think HURTING a HUNTING DOG to
MAKE IT HUNT is NECESSARY???

I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?

"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.

No different tune," ~Emily

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me. I volunteered
as assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter
for a while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and
unwanted animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute
to that problem," Mustang Sally.

Are those MENTAL CASES, or NOT?

Better report to Soup and update your MENTAL ILLNESS
status. The Puppy Wizard wouldn't wanna push you over
the goddamned edge and see you HURT YOURSELF
from EMBARRASSMENT.

Here's MOORE:

RPD* Mentally Ill AllStaRz as of 7/4/03

-----------------------------------------------
MENTAL ILLNESS IN RPD*
Mental illness is a public issue in these newsgroups.

People are always running around calling other people
mentally ill and diagnosing their illnesses. I think it's only
fair that we have an accurate list of who is and who isn't
mentally ill, so that we can avoid any misunderstandings
and promote group harmony.

Updated list as of 7/04/2003:

list of confirmed or suspected mentally ill (crazy) Regulars
Most of whom are women or homosexuals
=======================================

MaryBeth
MVP (most valuable psycho)
(super psycho bitch lunatic
queen of the mentally fucked
in the head

Has contributed greatly to the annual profit
results at several large pharmaceutical corps
has taken virtually every mentally ill (crazy)
drug treatment in the book, and then some:
prozac, zoloft, amitryptiline, Buspar, Xanax,
effexor, paxil, HRT, wellbutrin, tranquilizers,
clomid, has suffered from or been:

suicidal, agoraphobic, tidal waves of
PMS, mood swings, turned into a hermit,
bloated, just real angry, hubby afraid
of her, high blood pressure, divorced, "raving
bitch"

"zoloft zombie" for four years, "living
through layers and layers of gauze,"

chain smoker, buzzing, weight gain, fatigue,
terrible dry mouth, dull headaches, fuzzy brain,
lack of concentration..etc. severe depression,
severe insomnia,

Panic ALL the time, crying, not sleeping, you
name it...etc...

MaryBeth (on being seriously f'd in the head
aka mentally ill) aka cuckoo! kuckoo! ding! ding! ding!
aka a superpsychotic bitch from hell

"I know for a fact I went thru years of
being overly sensitive, being a b*tch,
being self centered, being self pitying,
you name it, I was a wreck and I ran
over everyone in my path."

"<G> I do know the power of meds, especially
on a long term basis, and it's not pretty.

You become another person, if it's not
the correct med for you.

--All the best,
MaryBeth

"Yup Diane, I am taking Zoloft, and my
Rheumatologist told me that taking
Ultram with it can cause seizures."

"I have all the symptoms.I am suicidal at
times (cyclical) have severe insomnia,
'crawly' skin etc. I have an appt to see
my doc next Friday to test for menopause."

--MaryBeth

"I noticed that antidepressants cut
libido into the dead zone and I had no real
emotions, like not laughing at funny stuff,
couldn't cry either.....except about my suicidal
thoughts (but at the time I thought there was no
other way out)."

--MaryBeth

"Hi, new to group, just starting Clomid
today. I talked with RE and pharmacist re:
zoloft (50 mg daily) and ineraction with Clomid.
They reported none. Not sure about the prozac
tho.

Gonna poat a new message to intorduce myself :)"

--MaryBeth <still feeling like herself> <G>

"I wasted about 10 years of my life, and
lost many many treasured ppl and things.
Please don't do the same.
(((((((SCOUT))))))))))

--MaryBeth

"Slowly but surely my depression got
worse and worse. They put me on meds for it, and
all along kept telling me to wait on the TKR, as
'it really wasn't that bad.....yet". HA!"

The depression got so bad, and lots of other things
happened and my ex and I would up divorced four
years after our move. It was horrible.

The hardest thing I have ever gone thru"

--MaryBeth

Theresa Willis (paxil, depression, robot displacement)

shelly couvrette

OCD, depression, drugs to be named later
(familial mental illness, possibly related to
family bed) obsessively starves her dogs
according to friends, family, strangers and
3 different vets, but not herself

lynn kosmakos (Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
depression) will "put down a biter
as fast as anyone" yet claims to
be a saintly dog rescuer

Leah

Effexor for chronic depression, in denial about being
mentally ill. Has taken several other mentally ill
medications before settling on effexor for her chronic
mental problems

Tara Green

was on antidepressants for a few years
prior to her marriage. During her
marriage, she learned a lot:

"With the therapist I saw during my
marriage I learned that some situational
depressions are masked as chemical
simply because of our too human ability
to prolong the impact of the causal
situations indefinitely"

Sounds like more denial, see leah

Tara is also a drunk who has also had
problems with other substances

TARA on being a drunk/substance abuser:

"Tara (who had some problems with quite a
few substances as well, but who thinks they
are separate issues.....so which camp does
that put me in???)"

"Believe it or not, some people don't have
a problem with drugs even though they are
alcoholics. I'm not one of those people, but they do exist."

aka, tara has problems with both

Kevin Michael Vail

various mental illness drugs, started with
zoloft, didn't like that, then went to
antidepressant, stopped after sufficent
side effects, now on SSRI and in therapy

Furpaw (SSRI, cognitive therapy)

Chris Jung (Prozac and Welbutrin, cognitive therapy)

Charlie Wilkes

drugged out, crazy, fucked up all his
life, Christ the shit he's been through
including psych wards and electroshock
treatments but now pulling down major
cash as a business consultant. Triumphing
over adversity, with a damn good life and a
well trained dog (very much unlike Leah)

Karen DuChateaux
aka Karibear

suffered from clinical depression for
years until some drug or something brought her
out of it. Some of her best friends "are certifiable"
and have various degrees of psychoses.

Familial mental disability.

Refuses to say whether or not she is
currently using drug or cognitive therapy
for mental illness.

Mike "DumbOxDumb" Dufort (pending)

threatened non violent dog expert Jerry Howe
with Mike's fully armed US Army Platoon.

Threatened to bring his platoon to Jerry's
HOWSE. also OCD (obsessed with Jerry's posts)

Jim Sabatke Jim is currently on Effexor which he takes
because of his depression/mental problems.

Like many of our mental cases, Jim has
had trouble finding the right med(s) to keep
him from going kuckoo!! kuckoooo!!! or
getting the "brain shivers"

From: Jim Sabatke (***@execpc.com)
Subject: Re: anyone using Effexor?
alt.support.depression.medication
Date: 2002-11-29 20:25:16 PST

EFFEXOR
"I'm on 375 mg/day and it has worked
wonders for me. The only down side is
that my blood pressure has elevated
somewhat; oh and if I miss a dose by a
couple of hours the "brain shivers" can
be really bad.

Good luck!

Jim"

"I switched from Paxil to Effexor about
5 months ago. I tapered off of the Paxil
and tapered onto the Effexor at the same
time."

Jim

"After several years on Effexor IR, my
pdoc tried switching me to XR. I
experienced fairly severe Effexor
withdrawel until I went back to the IR."

Jim

<YOUR NAME GOES HERE>
(please proudly add your name and the drugs/disorders
specific to you, if you are also mentally ill). If we all come
forward, we can help each other with our problems.

Remember, mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of.

It's not your fault if you have a defective brain which
may cause you to act like an extreme hypocrite and/or
idiot and/or robot without your being aware of it).

Also, please notify us if you are *not* mentally ill, and
have been added to this by mistake, so we can make
our corrections and remove you from the crazy person list.

--
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===========================================

Child

2003-09-13 04:55:05 UTC

I've

Post by AuralFeast
seen her mount one of her toys. She will not respond to a "no" command - ever.
If given a temperament test today - and I understand that she's much more
confident now - she'd clearly score as a dominant aggressive dog.
Then again, maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm overanalyzing this. Maybe she's
just a spirited puppy. Maybe she needs training. But I know I need advice -
my kids are at stake.

I think you are overreacting. She sounds like an overly excited retriever,
nipping is the norm until training . The mounting isn't unexpected although
I am confused - a dog or human sister? Who growled and fought? Has the
puppy learned not to mount from the growling and fighting?

Post by AuralFeast
I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house, even if they can be
"trained" out. Any experience with any of this? I'm calling the breeder
tomorrow - any opinions this late at night?

She sounds like a normal active puppy, who needs to be trained, and needs to
be working.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 12:53:39 UTC

You're a MENTAL CASE.

Post by AuralFeast
Is my puppy normal? She's a field Golden, nine weeks old.

We've had her

Post by AuralFeast
for

Post by AuralFeast
two. I've got two small children.
She tested out middle-of-the-road in temperament tests when we

purchased

Post by AuralFeast
her.

Post by AuralFeast
She seemed pretty normal when interacting with her 6 siblings.

She

Post by AuralFeast
exhibited

Post by AuralFeast
no aggressive or dominant behavior. She was one of the

puppies that

Post by AuralFeast
didn't

Post by AuralFeast
nip.
All that's changed. The nipping is constant. Ankles, feet,

fingers,

Post by AuralFeast
arms - it

Post by AuralFeast
never stops. Carry her - nipping. Pet her - nipping. Sit

there and mind

Post by AuralFeast
your

Post by AuralFeast
own business - nipping. We've tried "no" commands. We've

tried

Post by AuralFeast
ignoring

Post by AuralFeast
her. We've tried diversion. Nothing stops it.
She will defer to nothing, two or four-legged. Two days after

we got her,

Post by AuralFeast
she

Post by AuralFeast
mounted her sister, which resulted in some nasty growling and fighting.

I've

Post by AuralFeast
seen her mount one of her toys. She will not respond to a

"no" command -

Post by AuralFeast
ever.

Post by AuralFeast
If given a temperament test today - and I understand that

she's much more

Post by AuralFeast
confident now - she'd clearly score as a dominant aggressive

dog.

Post by AuralFeast
Then again, maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm overanalyzing

this. Maybe

Post by AuralFeast
she's

Post by AuralFeast
just a spirited puppy. Maybe she needs training. But I know

I need

Post by AuralFeast
advice -

Post by AuralFeast
my kids are at stake.

I think you are overreacting. She sounds like an overly excited retriever,
nipping is the norm until training . The mounting isn't

unexpected although

Post by AuralFeast
I am confused - a dog or human sister? Who growled and fought?

Has the

Post by AuralFeast
puppy learned not to mount from the growling and fighting?

Post by AuralFeast
I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house,

even if they

Post by AuralFeast
can be

Post by AuralFeast
"trained" out. Any experience with any of this? I'm calling the breeder
tomorrow - any opinions this late at night?

She sounds like a normal active puppy, who needs to be trained, and needs to
be working.

Emily Carroll

2003-09-13 05:15:37 UTC

Try flicking her on the nose every time she touches skin. O

You're joking, right? There's no ned to physically punish a 9 week old
puppy.

No, not if you mind having needle teeth in your hands.

Just like there's no need to physically punish a 9 week old child.

A 9 week old puppy is in a similar stage to a 3 year old child, not a 9 week
old child. And yes, it is sometimes appropriate to physically punish a 3
year old child.

Your puppy will associate fear and pain with playing and interacting with
you and you don't want that.

Hm. I don't think Rusty's at that point. Yes, if you overdo it, and keep
the punishment going for more than a second. But it's flick-back to
playtime. He's NOT harmed by it physically or mentally.

If it continues past 4
months, I'd start stuffing her in her crate for a "time out" whenever

teeth

touched you or your kids. But by that time, the flicking and other
unpleasantness should be over, and it shouldn't be a problem.

OK Dear Aural Feast, NEVER do this. THis way you'll NEVER get your dog

into

a crate when you need it, whether it be for using it as a bed,
transportation, at the vet's clinic, whatever. NEVER use a crate as
punishment. Rather just stop the play and interaction so the puppy sees

that

when he hurts someone, game's over and he'll have no more fun.

Yes--that's how it's being used. As a time-out place. The puppy gets put
in it's crate and ignored for a minute or two. Otherwise, you are giving
the puppy an opportunity to continue it's behavior.

THis makes me so sad. It's a shame some people think that the _only_ way

for

dog and handler to work together is dominant person and submissive dog.

You want a dog that is dominant to you? Go at it, but don't tell others
that it's appropriate or good. It isn't. Most dogs, allowed to be dominant
over their people, will resort to aggression to "maintain" peace in the
pack.

There are so many other and better combinations - like a team that takes
hasrespect and loyalty towards the other.

You can be the dominant member of the pack and still respect the dog and
give eachother support. However, it is better for the dog to be the
subordinate, for both it's own safety (biting an "intruder" will get it
euthanized, for example, or chasing said intruder off may get it hit by a
car), and your own.

~Emily

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Emily Carroll

2003-09-13 05:50:45 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
A 9 week old puppy is in a similar stage to a 3 year old child, not a 9

week

Post by Emily Carroll
old child. And yes, it is sometimes appropriate to physically punish a 3
year old child.

No it is not, IMO. And it is definitely never necessary.

A 9 week old puppy can walk. A 9 week old baby cannot. A 9 week old puppy
is capable of learning simple behaviors and can communicate. A 9 week old
baby can do neither. They are not the same--and comparing them is
disadvantageous to both.

Post by Emily Carroll
Yes--that's how it's being used. As a time-out place. The puppy gets put
in it's crate and ignored for a minute or two. Otherwise, you are giving
the puppy an opportunity to continue it's behavior.

A time-out as PUNISHMENT should never be done in a crate if you want your
dog to feel that it's a safe place.
The pup can be ignored for a minute or two without being shoved in to a
crate.

It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and reflect
upon the fact that biting=no more play. If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

Puppy in crate cannot mouth you or anything else. You try to ignore puppy,
so puppy starts chewing on the couch. You remove puppy from couch, and
puppy starts mouthing you (because you are now interacting with him again).

Ablsolutely not. My dog and I are a team. A great team. And she's the best
behaved dog of those I've ever had or met thankyouverymuch. All without
corporal punishment , yelling or shoving her into a crate. She enjoys her
crate and rests in it and feels safe there. She knows I'd never harm her

and

trusts me completely. It's a beautiful thing, actually.

And I have dogs that have been treated with less than 100% positive methods
that I have the same relationship with. It's not a result of a particular
method of training, but being able to time the punishment with the undesired
behavior, and the reward with the desired behavior. Regardless of which you
choose to focus on.

Again, I never said I wanted a domingant dog. I just said I think corporal
punishment is ineffective and old-fashioned.

If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create best selling
books.

It IS effective. Very effective. But only if the rewards and punishments
are applied at the proper times. No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy. You can reward a puppy a million times a day for not biting, but
it won't catch on until it finds out that biting=bad stuff happens, whether
that be being ignored, stuck in his crate, flicked, or tossed across the
room. I can't put him in a time-out without using his crate--the sheer fact
that he's alive is enough reward for ANY behavior in his little mind.
Besides, the cat may come along and he may be rewarded by chasing her. Or
he may come across a bit of food that one of the other pets dropped on the
floor. His crate is a place for him to reflect upon the fact that it's a
pretty boring place to be when you aren't asleep (or being fed).

Well duh. I'm in charge , and she's non-agressive. She's actually very
subordinate - out of respect and eagerness to please instead of out of

fear

. She's obedient and well behaved . But that doesn't mean that I have to
snap, pinch, yell, force or anything else. There are other and more
effective ways to train a dog.

Yes, but how would you deal with a dog that isn't subordinate? How would
you deal with a dog that consistantly looked for the opportunity to one-up
you? The dogs I choose to have in my life have a bit of dominant behavior.
I don't WANT a dog that refuses to listen because he knows better than I do,
but I want a dog that is confident in himself.

Furthermore, how do you proof a dog for competition using no-force methods?
You can teach the behaviors, but how do you ensure that the dog will respond
without rewards? I'd rather plop down my $100 and have my CD in 4 months
with a dog that knows that there is no other option than spend three years
getting the dog proofed through positive methods.

I'm not saying that positive methods are bad. I use clicker training. I
don't "punish" but correct bad behavior. Punishment, to me, is something
that extends beyond the capabilities of a dog's learning process.

But there are places where a well-timed correction can get the point across
much more efficiently than trying to reward the good behavior time after
time.

~Emily

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Kaabooo

2003-09-13 06:21:27 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
A 9 week old puppy can walk. A 9 week old baby cannot. A 9 week old puppy
is capable of learning simple behaviors and can communicate. A 9 week old
baby can do neither. They are not the same--and comparing them is
disadvantageous to both.

OK - so let's compare it to a 3 year old or even a 4 or 5 year old. It' snot
necessary, nor beneficial to physically punish them either, IMO.

Post by Emily Carroll
It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and reflect
upon the fact that biting=no more play.

A puppy doesn't lie there and reflect. As soon as the play is over he'll
have realized what happened. 30 seconds later he has no clue and he's
definitely not lying there "reflecting".

Post by Emily Carroll
If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

No, because you're not part of it anymore.

~~ snip snip ~~

Post by Emily Carroll
And I have dogs that have been treated with less than 100% positive methods
that I have the same relationship with. It's not a result of a particular
method of training, but being able to time the punishment with the undesired
behavior, and the reward with the desired behavior. Regardless of which you
choose to focus on.

You are right. But I think we just disagree what is appropriate
"punishment".
And it's dangerous to tell a first time puppy owner to try to teach physical
punishment. An unexperienced dog owner is likely to time "punishment" wrong
and it will work against all purposes.

~~snip~~

Post by Emily Carroll
If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create best selling
books.

Kohler wrote his books more than 40 years ago. Things have happened since
then.

Post by Emily Carroll
It IS effective. Very effective.

It sure as heck is if you want your dog to obey you out of fear rather than
devotion and respect. Or if your timing's bad and you create a
fear-agressive dog.

Post by Emily Carroll
But only if the rewards and punishments
are applied at the proper times.

Agree, again, but we disagree what is appropriate punishment . To me turning
away, a firm "no" or "ah ah" and stop the fun activity is more than enough.

Post by Emily Carroll
No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy.

You did tell him to flick it's nose... and shove it in a crate.

Post by Emily Carroll
You can reward a puppy a million times a day for not biting, but
it won't catch on until it finds out that biting=bad stuff happens, whether
that be being ignored,

=OK IMO

Post by Emily Carroll
stuck in his crate,

not OK IMO

Post by Emily Carroll
flicked,

Not OK

Post by Emily Carroll
or tossed across the
room.

Definitely WRONG.

Post by Emily Carroll
I can't put him in a time-out without using his crate--the sheer fact
that he's alive is enough reward for ANY behavior in his little mind.
Besides, the cat may come along and he may be rewarded by chasing her. Or
he may come across a bit of food that one of the other pets dropped on the
floor. His crate is a place for him to reflect upon the fact that it's a
pretty boring place to be when you aren't asleep (or being fed).

But here you make it clear that it has to be a lengthy time-out. A yound pup
doesn't need that.
When the fun stops the punishment is set.
He's not gonna go to his room and "think about what he's done" or anything!
~~snip~~

Post by Emily Carroll
Yes, but how would you deal with a dog that isn't subordinate? How would
you deal with a dog that consistantly looked for the opportunity to one-up
you? The dogs I choose to have in my life have a bit of dominant behavior.
I don't WANT a dog that refuses to listen because he knows better than I do,
but I want a dog that is confident in himself.

By rewarding desired behavior and "punishing " (your word, not mine) by
stopping a fun activity or a firm voice. Only in extreme cases would I use
physical force, and DEFINITELY not with a 9 week old puppy.

Post by Emily Carroll
Furthermore, how do you proof a dog for competition using no-force methods?

Same thing. And we train both agility and herding. Funny thing is she knows
more about herding than I do...

Post by Emily Carroll
You can teach the behaviors, but how do you ensure that the dog will respond
without rewards?

Because a dog with the relationship I wish to form and that I have wit my
current dog ensures that's she's eager to please me and my recognition is
her reward. Plus she gets used to working harder and performing more
difficult tasks before expecting a reward. It becomes a habit.

Post by Emily Carroll
I'd rather plop down my $100 and have my CD in 4 months
with a dog that knows that there is no other option than spend three years
getting the dog proofed through positive methods.

So you'd rather have a quick fix than anything else... ok with me.

Post by Emily Carroll
I'm not saying that positive methods are bad. I use clicker training. I
don't "punish" but correct bad behavior. Punishment, to me, is something
that extends beyond the capabilities of a dog's learning process.
But there are places where a well-timed correction can get the point across
much more efficiently than trying to reward the good behavior time after
time.

That's true enough, but not with a 9 week old puppy!

Post by Emily Carroll
~Emily

Kate

Emily Carroll

2003-09-13 10:58:12 UTC

Post by Kaabooo
OK - so let's compare it to a 3 year old or even a 4 or 5 year old. It' snot
necessary, nor beneficial to physically punish them either, IMO.

So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

Post by Emily Carroll
It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and

reflect

Post by Emily Carroll
upon the fact that biting=no more play.

A puppy doesn't lie there and reflect. As soon as the play is over he'll
have realized what happened. 30 seconds later he has no clue and he's
definitely not lying there "reflecting".

So how long does the play stop? The 1/2 second it takes a dog to learn?
Doesn't work like that.

Post by Emily Carroll
If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

No, because you're not part of it anymore.

But the fact that you're in the same room means that you are.

Post by Kaabooo
~~snip~~

Post by Emily Carroll
If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create best selling
books.

Kohler wrote his books more than 40 years ago. Things have happened since
then.

Like what? What changes the fact that his method works? Dogs think
differently now than they did 40 years ago?

Post by Kaabooo
It sure as heck is if you want your dog to obey you out of fear rather than
devotion and respect. Or if your timing's bad and you create a
fear-agressive dog.

Flicking a puppy on the nose when it's biting should not create a
fear-aggressive dog. If it does, the dog's temperament was unstable to
begin with.

Post by Kaabooo
Agree, again, but we disagree what is appropriate punishment . To me turning
away, a firm "no" or "ah ah" and stop the fun activity is more than enough.

So be it. Doesn't mean that I'm cruel or that I abuse my dogs or that it's
wrong. I think it's inappropriate for children to be allowed to run rampant
in a china store--but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of parents out
there who obviously don't think it's a problem.

Post by Emily Carroll
No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy.

You did tell him to flick it's nose... and shove it in a crate.

If you equate flicking on the nose with abuse you need a reality check.

Post by Kaabooo
But here you make it clear that it has to be a lengthy time-out. A yound pup
doesn't need that.
When the fun stops the punishment is set.

Yes--exactly--but it's still fun to be allowed to chew on the couch or chase
the cat. No punishment has happened until the dog is no longer having fun.
The fun must stop completely and immediately for it to work--leaving the
puppy loose to continue to play on it's own does not equal a bad thing.
Maybe you have dogs who think that way, but most puppies are still happy
playing by themselves.

Post by Kaabooo
By rewarding desired behavior and "punishing " (your word, not mine) by
stopping a fun activity or a firm voice. Only in extreme cases would I use
physical force, and DEFINITELY not with a 9 week old puppy.

And I have dogs that would walk all over you. They wouldn't do anything
extreme--but nothing would be accomplished and they wouldn't be fun dogs to
have around.

Post by Kaabooo
Because a dog with the relationship I wish to form and that I have wit my
current dog ensures that's she's eager to please me and my recognition is
her reward. Plus she gets used to working harder and performing more
difficult tasks before expecting a reward. It becomes a habit.

You have a herding breed. I don't, and neither does the OP. You don't
teach the average Lab much through positive-only methods unless you're
*very* talented at timing the reward right. The whole WORLD is just as good
as you are.

Post by Kaabooo
So you'd rather have a quick fix than anything else... ok with me.

Yes, I would. I'd rather have a quick, effective recall because the dog's
been taught about consequences than have a dog that thinks it's OK to play
in the street. (See the "Whew" thread). I'd rather have a dog that sits
nicely for petting from day one than knocks a little kid over and gets me
sued. But I have a breed that will happily do both in complete oblivion to
me if not taught otherwise. You don't.

Post by Kaabooo
That's true enough, but not with a 9 week old puppy!

If it's true for an adult, it's true for a puppy.

~Emily

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Nessa

2003-09-13 11:16:11 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

that's life threatening. a bit of bitey is not life threatening and my kids
were never allowed close enough to the stove to turn over a pot of boiling
water. just like folks tell us to keep stuff away from our dogs.....

I would never nose flick a dog EVER. but then what do I know of dog
training. All I want is a companion a pet with good manners.

nessa
--
You all laugh because I'm different, I laugh cause you're all the same.
www.nessa.info

Emily Carroll

2003-09-13 11:19:17 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

that's life threatening. a bit of bitey is not life threatening

It is if they mouth someone who isn't familiar with dogs and decides to
report the half-grown puppy that still hasn't outgrown it as "vicious." Or
if they break the skin in the process--that qualifies as a bite as well in
many areas.

It wouldn't be the first time a dog was put down for aggression that didn't
exist.

~Emily

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The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 12:52:27 UTC

You're abHOWET to KILL your dogs.

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

that's life threatening. a bit of bitey is not life

threatening and my kids

Post by Nessa
were never allowed close enough to the stove to turn over a pot of boiling
water. just like folks tell us to keep stuff away from our

dogs.....

Post by Nessa
I would never nose flick a dog EVER. but then what do I know

of dog

Post by Nessa
training. All I want is a companion a pet with good manners.
nessa
--
You all laugh because I'm different, I laugh cause you're all

the same.

Post by Nessa
www.nessa.info

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 18:53:25 UTC

HOWEDY alison,

You're a IDIOT.

There's no difference HOWE you INTIMIDATE
FRIGHTEN and HURT a critter. That's what makes
them get DEAD.

You're a dog abuser, plain and simple.

Stick to pickin up doody in the boarding kennel.

The Puppy Wizard. <} ; ~ ) >

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn

over a

Post by Emily Carroll
boiling pot

Post by Emily Carroll
of water on itself?

Um, How would a child get into this situation in the first

place!

Post by Emily Carroll
I'd grab the child and take it away from danger. There's a

difference

Post by Emily Carroll
between smacking a hand and giving it a tap , you mean a tap

rather

Post by Emily Carroll
than a harder smack ? A 3 year old has a fair understanding of

things

Post by Emily Carroll
and you don't need to smack it as punshment .
Alison

Bethgsd

2003-09-13 23:57:26 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
And I have dogs that would walk all over you. They wouldn't do anything
extreme--but nothing would be accomplished and they wouldn't be fun dogs to
have around.

snip

Post by Emily Carroll
You have a herding breed. I don't, and neither does the OP. You don't
teach the average Lab much through positive-only methods unless you're
*very* talented at timing the reward right.

I have seen this all too often with some of the people doing agility in my
area. They can't manage to put a CD on their dogs because they've never taught
the dogs that they MUST stay when told. And this backfires on them in agility
as well. These are lab owners, BTW.

Beth

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-14 00:08:41 UTC

You're a IDIOT.

Post by Bethgsd

Post by Emily Carroll
And I have dogs that would walk all over you. They wouldn't do anything
extreme--but nothing would be accomplished and they wouldn't be fun dogs to
have around.

snip

Post by Emily Carroll
You have a herding breed. I don't, and neither does the OP.

You don't

Post by Bethgsd

Post by Emily Carroll
teach the average Lab much through positive-only methods unless you're
*very* talented at timing the reward right.

I have seen this all too often with some of the people doing

agility in my

Post by Bethgsd
area. They can't manage to put a CD on their dogs because

they've never taught

Post by Bethgsd
the dogs that they MUST stay when told. And this backfires on

them in agility

Post by Bethgsd
as well. These are lab owners, BTW.
Beth

Tara O.

2003-09-15 15:38:54 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling

pot

Post by Emily Carroll
of water on itself?

Sometimes with children, the *best* method of getting them to remember that
something is dangerous is to create a situation that they will forever
remember...like a hand-smack or a scarey story. I am a product of
generations worth of family who believed in spanking. I don't advocate
spanking but the simple truth is that it never killed me. I best remember
the situations where a spanking occured as punishment/correction over the
ones where I just got a verbal warning. A hand smack will startle the
child, especially if he/she isn't accustomed to such things. It'll make the
kid remember that smack and that getting near the stove is BAD. Telling a
scarey story about what happens to kids who cross the road without looking
may seem mean as well but you know what? the kid remembers that story and
will think twice before crossing the road vs. the kid who has just been
nicely told to look both ways.

Sometimes, with life or death scenarios, instilling momentary fear or
startlement in a child is the quickest and most effective way of both
ensuring the kid's safety at that time as well as making sure the kid
remembers not to do the same thing again in the future. Different strokes
for different folks and all that but I'll go on the record as saying I don't
disagree with something like a hand-smack. Just jumping in to remove the
child has taught the kid absolutely nothing.

--
Tara

Tara O.

2003-09-15 15:44:02 UTC

Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....

You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you, but its
for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that statement. Sometimes
parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the child may not
like but it *is* for their own good.

--
Tara

Kind2dogs

2003-09-15 15:45:00 UTC

Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Date: Mon, Sep 15, 2003 11:44 AM
Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....
You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you, but its
for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that statement. Sometimes
parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the child may not
like but it *is* for their own good.
--
Tara

I don't remember many times I got smacked on my hands, and when it happened
they were the TEACHERS with the ruler .

Paulette~

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-15 16:43:42 UTC

HOWEDY "TOO MANY NO KILL SHELTERS,"

It don't matter who's doin the ABUSE.

Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Date: Mon, Sep 15, 2003 11:44 AM
Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....
You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will hurt

you, but its

for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that statement.

Sometimes

parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the

child may not

like but it *is* for their own good.
--
Tara

I don't remember many times I got smacked on my hands, and when it happened
they were the TEACHERS with the ruler .
Paulette~

Leah

2003-09-17 02:02:58 UTC

Post by Kind2dogs
I don't remember many times I got smacked on my hands, and when it happened
they were the TEACHERS with the ruler .

My mom would have had a teacher's head if one ever struck me.

However, mom did a lot of pinching, hair pulling, and yelling. I used to wish
she'd just smack me and get it over with.

Occasionally I'd get a spanking (turned over the knee and slapped on the butt
with an open palm). It stung, but far less than the nag, nag, nag, nag, nag
stuff did.

Then I'd be isolated. I would be commanded to "stay on the couch" for hours.
I pretended to hate this. I loved it. The back of the couch was the wall of a
castle, the floor was a moat, I was Robin Hood... you get the picture. :} It
was the most time I could get alone without mom on my back.

My father spanked me (always just one smack with an open palm) maybe 3 times
ever. I remember those, because they hurt a lot worse than my mother's
spankings, and because he had to be raving mad to do it.

What I remember the most, though, is my mother doing things like saying,
"You're no good!" and spitting on the floor as an exclamation point. I haven't
a clue what I did to deserve that, especially at age 5 or so.

Then there was the time she swallowed a bottle of aspirin, stumbled into my
room, pointed at me, and collapsed on the floor. I was about 12 then. I think
I had given her a hard time about what clothes I wanted to wear.

Yup, my childhood was not fun.

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

montana

2003-09-15 16:29:16 UTC

The way I see it, to always make sure you are able to intervene on a child's
behalf is doing nothing more than managing the child's life to every degree.

I agree entirely with this. We differ on the "smacking" issue.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-15 16:44:26 UTC

But you'll jerk and choke and shock a dog...

Sometimes

Post by Tara O.
parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the

child may not

Post by Tara O.
like but it *is* for their own good.

I remember that bogus line. Don't remember what I did before I

heard it,

but it was f***ing lame. Same with spankings. Even under the age

of six,

I mentioned that it must make the P's very happy to be spanking

me and I

hoped it made them feel better to do it. Worthless stuff.

c0uch_cam

2003-09-15 17:08:04 UTC

you illustrated the effectiveness of your techniques when you Killed
your dog Summer.

You taught her the "Play Dead" command, but you weren't playing.

Post by Tara O.
Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....
You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you, but

its

Post by Tara O.
for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that statement. Sometimes
parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the child may

not

Post by Tara O.
like but it *is* for their own good.

I remember that bogus line. Don't remember what I did before I heard it,
but it was f***ing lame. Same with spankings. Even under the age of six,
I mentioned that it must make the P's very happy to be spanking me and I
hoped it made them feel better to do it. Worthless stuff.

Well I've only had to use it twice with Amie in 8 years and I've never used
the "before the deed" version but the "I know you won't believe this but
that hurt me more than it hurt you." One was a signifcant smack of the
hand because she tried to touch a hot burner after being told repeatedly to
stay away from the stove (yes, I was standing right there but she snuck up
behind me and reached for the stove). I hated smacking her but, like alot
of kids, she either didn't believe she'd get hurt or my warnings only spiked
her curiosity further. The second time was recently when she broke a
neighbor's window and we both knew the neighbor was furious. I made her go
over there and confront the neighbor and allowed him to tell her just what
he thought of kids who break windows. I hated it and didn't want someone
else making my kid feel an inch tall (and causing her to cry) but its part
of growing up, learning and taking responsibility for your actions. I felt
like the worst mom in the world for several days after that meeting w/the
neighbor whereas Amie had already moved past the incident by the next day.
The way I see it, to always make sure you are able to intervene on a child's
behalf is doing nothing more than managing the child's life to every degree.
You're not teaching them lessons and I know quite a few people who were
managed so well by their mamas that they're practically helpless as adults.
None of us, as adults, can honestly say that we've never learned by first
either being allowed to make mistakes or suffering consequences from a
mistake made. Which lessons stand out the most...the ones where your parent
intervened on your behalf and then told you nicely why not to do
something...or the ones where you suffered consequences? As for the "always
supervising" part of the equation, if anyone here can truthfully say that
there was never a period of time when any of their children were
unsupervised during any activity or situation that *might* have needed it,
then my hat is off to you as the better parent because I find that kind of
supervision impossible to achieve.
To make this dog-related, dogs learn fastest by consequences too. A dog who
is punished for coming when called learns quickly not to come when called.
A dog who is physically punished often tends to be hand-shy because they
remember the hand hurts. I'm not advocating hitting or using harsh
punishment regularly but this goes to illustrate my point about
hand-smacking a kid. The kid will remember the hand-smack and associate it
with getting too close to the stove just like the dog who remembers being
smacked when he comes to his owner when called.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-15 17:09:57 UTC

HOWEDY tara o.,

You're a MENTAL CASE! You MURDERED your dog Summer.

You're an ABUSER and a LIAR.

Post by Tara O.
Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....
You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will

hurt you, but

its

Post by Tara O.
for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that

statement. Sometimes

Post by Tara O.
parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the

child may

not

Post by Tara O.
like but it *is* for their own good.

I remember that bogus line. Don't remember what I did before I

heard it,

but it was f***ing lame. Same with spankings. Even under the

age of six,

I mentioned that it must make the P's very happy to be

spanking me and I

hoped it made them feel better to do it. Worthless stuff.

Well I've only had to use it twice with Amie in 8 years and I've

never used

the "before the deed" version but the "I know you won't believe

this but

that hurt me more than it hurt you." One was a signifcant

smack of the

hand because she tried to touch a hot burner after being told

repeatedly to

stay away from the stove (yes, I was standing right there but

she snuck up

behind me and reached for the stove). I hated smacking her but,

like alot

of kids, she either didn't believe she'd get hurt or my warnings

only spiked

her curiosity further. The second time was recently when she

broke a

neighbor's window and we both knew the neighbor was furious. I

made her go

over there and confront the neighbor and allowed him to tell her

just what

he thought of kids who break windows. I hated it and didn't

want someone

else making my kid feel an inch tall (and causing her to cry)

but its part

of growing up, learning and taking responsibility for your

actions. I felt

like the worst mom in the world for several days after that

meeting w/the

neighbor whereas Amie had already moved past the incident by the

next day.

The way I see it, to always make sure you are able to intervene

on a child's

behalf is doing nothing more than managing the child's life to

every degree.

You're not teaching them lessons and I know quite a few people

who were

managed so well by their mamas that they're practically helpless

as adults.

None of us, as adults, can honestly say that we've never learned

by first

either being allowed to make mistakes or suffering consequences

from a

mistake made. Which lessons stand out the most...the ones where

your parent

intervened on your behalf and then told you nicely why not to do
something...or the ones where you suffered consequences? As for

the "always

supervising" part of the equation, if anyone here can truthfully

say that

there was never a period of time when any of their children were
unsupervised during any activity or situation that *might* have

needed it,

then my hat is off to you as the better parent because I find

that kind of

supervision impossible to achieve.
To make this dog-related, dogs learn fastest by consequences

too. A dog who

is punished for coming when called learns quickly not to come

when called.

A dog who is physically punished often tends to be hand-shy

because they

remember the hand hurts. I'm not advocating hitting or using

harsh

punishment regularly but this goes to illustrate my point about
hand-smacking a kid. The kid will remember the hand-smack and

associate it

with getting too close to the stove just like the dog who

remembers being

smacked when he comes to his owner when called.
--
Tara

sionnach

2003-09-15 17:45:06 UTC

One was a signifcant smack of the
hand because she tried to touch a hot burner after being told repeatedly

stay away from the stove (yes, I was standing right there but she snuck up
behind me and reached for the stove).

Now, in *that* scenario, I think smacking the hand is perfectly
reasonable- especially since it's not your usual way of dealing with her.
One of the few times my niece Jenny ever got smacked (that one was actually
one hard smack on the rear) was at age five, when she deliberately stepped
into the street after having been told firmly a couple of times not to do
it. She looked at Carrie, absolutely shocked, and said "You NEVER hit me!"
I don't remember what Carrie's exact rejoinder was, but it was to the effect
of "I do when it's a matter of life and death., and you're not listening."

The way I see it, to always make sure you are able to intervene on a

child's

behalf is doing nothing more than managing the child's life to every

degree.

No disagreement there. Protecting children from the consequences of
their actions is poor parenting, IMO.

You're not teaching them lessons and I know quite a few people who were
managed so well by their mamas that they're practically helpless as

adults.

Yep!

<As for the "always

supervising" part of the equation, if anyone here can truthfully say that
there was never a period of time when any of their children were
unsupervised during any activity or situation that *might* have needed it,
then my hat is off to you as the better parent because I find that kind of
supervision impossible to achieve.

No question there- no parent is perfect! However, just like with the
old joke about rolling up the newspaper and smacking YOURSELF if the dog
pees on the floor, it still doesn't, IMO, justify punishing a child OR dog
for your own lapse.

The kid will remember the hand-smack and associate it
with getting too close to the stove just like the dog who remembers being
smacked when he comes to his owner when called.

The problem with the hand-smack in the originally presented scenario - and
this, too, is related to dog training- is that you can't guarantee what
other associations will be made. In the case of your smacking Amie, it was
clear to her why she got smacked because you had already made it clear that
touching the burner was wrong.

Nessa

2003-09-15 20:33:37 UTC

Post by Tara O.
Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....
You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you, but its
for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that statement. Sometimes
parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the child may not
like but it *is* for their own good.

the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to run faster than my
dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does that say?

Nessa

--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info

Rocky

2003-09-16 03:47:41 UTC

Post by Nessa
the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
that say?

I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-16 04:22:44 UTC

HOWEDY dejablues,

Heh...I learned not to get caught,

Yeah. Punishment makes dogs and kids SNEAKY.

plus , that my dad hated me.

Does the same same same same for HOWER dogs.
That's HOWE COME HOWER DOG LOVERS KILL
the dogs they FEAR.

Why else would he hurt me?

Probably cause his daddy beat him too. It's a generations
thing, same same same same with dogs. Pups born to an
abusive mom will likeWIZE, become abusive mom dogs.

Seriously, I thought my parents hated me for years.

They hate themselves as they've been taught by their
parents; "The sins of the fathers..."

Truth is, they knew no better way.

INDEEDY. But WE know better nHOWE. Don't we, dejablues.

NHOWE is the time to put a stop to this INSANITY. We've
got liars, dog abusers, and MENTAL CASES tellin folks
HOWE to HURT and KILL their dogs and LYIN abHOWET
IT, just like your daddy did.

(in message

Post by Tara O.
Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....
You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will

hurt you,

Post by Tara O.
but its for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that

statement.

Post by Tara O.
Sometimes parents have to do things they don't want to do

and

Post by Tara O.
that the child may not like but it *is* for their own good.

spanking me and I

hoped it made them feel better to do it. Worthless stuff.

the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to run

faster

than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does that say?

SEZ YOU DO THE SAME SAME SAME SAME TO YOUR DOGS!

Nessa
--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info

Don't think of it as a "cage". Think of it as a dog bed

that shuts-

same

as putting a human baby in a crib or playpen when needed.

Seriously!

That's

how crates function, and your mental attitude about it will

determine

whether or not using it works.

Ohh! Good advice. I'm stealing that to say to my MIL.

She has a new

Pomeranian pup and is having a hard time with the potty

training. I

suggested a crate for when she couldn't watch him fully and

she

freaked.....

-Jenn

I'm quite happy that her cage will be a nice place for her ~ it

made me all

gooey putting her toys out in it, bringing out all the maternal

feelings I

could never feel for a human baby ;-)
.... see update in new post!
Diana

Subject: "On A Mission To Hound Me Out After My Statement. That
Statement Being That I Actually Like Jerry And His Stuff," lush -
Re: Serving Suggestion - Re: hi
This is the only article in this thread
View: Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, alt.animals.dog,
rec.pets.dogs, rec.pets.dogs.rescue, rec.pets.dogs.misc
Date: 2002-12-16 17:28:51 PST

HOWEDY sinofabitch,

<shrug> Unless she can re-post it in a format I can read,

I just quoted it in it's entirety, off of Google.

<and without music that locks up my computer,

There's no html on Google. And there's no music
on my post, cept for the funeral dirge for our
expert dog trainers.

we'll never know.

You'll never know on account of you're a lying
dog abusing Thug Coward, sinovabitch.

Subject: "On A Mission To Hound Me Out After My Statement. That
Statement Being That I Actually Like Jerry And His Stuff," lush

From: Diana (***@lineone.net)
Subject: whoa - very long but you asked for it.

Date: 2001-11-10 05:19:06 PST

Cheers, Sionnch,

I was getting a bit paranoid there and I did think you were
just all on a mission to hound me out after my statement.
I've got some time now so I will answer you questions as
it so obviously caused great upset amongst you all.

That statement being that I actually like Jerry and his stuff.

Read carefully if you interested, because I know how easy it
is to miss things, grab the wrong end of the stick etc &
misinterpret... done it myself a million times. It also goes
quite in depth about the dogs I lived with as a child and the
methods my parents used to train both the dogs and us.

I barely remember the Shelti my parents had when I was born
-apparently she died when I was about 2, but we got Ivan the
Samoyed (visually - not pure) when I was 3(ish). I do remember
even going to pick him up as a pup and there were little
fluffy baby dogs everywhere... some were black and I wanted a
black one but Dad said we had to have a white one because
Samoyeds were supposed to be white and we wanted it to look
like we had a pure samoyed - don't hang me here - remember it
clear as day but I was only about 3. We lived in Vancouver
then.. if anyone's interested. I loved Ivan - but he chewed
our toys. This made Dad mad so he would hit him so hard he
screamed and throw him down the stairs. Tony (brother) was a
toddler - but I remember that I had to look out for any toys,
both mine and his to make sure they would not be chewed and
those that were got, got hidden. His temper and excessive
punishments were not just for Ivan. I remember clearly one
morning being up before my parents and playing in the kitchen,
pretending to be mum, as kids do... but got caught with the
electric carving knife. A leather belt across the backside
hurts. Even now I can not understand how he could have done
that to a 3-4 year old child... or a pup.

When I was four my parents decided that they wanted to come
back to England and I remember hating the little girl who came
with her dad to take Ivan away and being told he would be her
dog now.

We came o England & stayed at Nan's for some time. Nan had
Sheba- beautiful but elderly Rough Collie. Was so passive and
quiet . Then one day I fell down the stairs. As I tumbled
down, she came up and caught me... at four I was feeling more
and more fearful of people but safe in the company of dogs.

We moved out of Nan's and in to our own home. It was a large
house & had a huge garden & was opposite a large public park -
I think I was about 51/2 when Dad brought home Tisha - a
Borzoi pup. She wet & messed the floor and was punished by
having her nose pushed in it, a slipper across the backside so
she yelped and being thrown outside, I didn't like this - I
was sure they didn't have to do this to her. Dad loved her -
she was his dog and we had to ask permission to touch her. He
liked his big car ~ posh dog image.

The garden was big, the fence was big - the park opposite was
fun the road in between was fast. Tisha got big and took a big
jump. She made 18 months.

The discussions went on - Dad wanted a dog for himself, so it
was decided that they were going to get an Old English
Sheepdog for them and a Basset for us kids... then we went
around to loads of breeders and saw loads of pups - dogs being
very my passion I took it all in. I remember the Old English
Sheepdog lady telling Mum why she thought we shouldn't have
one with 2 young children, and so it was decided that while
Dad made up his mind what he wanted, Mum would take us to the
RSPCA to choose a dog for us.

We picked up Sadie in 1976 - 4 months old JRT x. I was 7 - I
was unhappy at school, I had never settled in,at first being
shy of my different accent and because I was a timid child
anyway. Sadie was my olny friend. Sadie messed the floor,
Sadie got her nose shoved in it, and the whack - Sadie did not
learn - she was so scared of people coming down the stairs in
the morning that she wet & messed the floor - so they hit her.
I would try and sneak down and tidy up before they came down -
I would get hit for being soft on her.

Sadie pulled on the lead. I never mentioned mum was a horse
fanatic ~ she showed me that the way to stop Sadie pulling was
to snap a shoot from a tree and use it as a whip on the dogs
nose. I didn't like it but I knew no better - I was
desperately looking for a better method - it was my job to
walk her after school.

Barbara Woodhouse came on tv... my love of dogs and all I had
learnt about breeds now extended and I learnt about choke
collars - much preferable to the whip - I also saw how she
used methods such as copying the dogs play stance and how she
had commended someone for using my trick of rubbing a dogs
chest to calm it - I was dead proud because I had already
learnt that for myself.

Sadie was a JRT x. She was also as afraid of my bad tempered
and unreasonable father as I was. We spent so much time curled
together, cowering behind the sofa.

I had always thought it would be great if I could teach Sadie
to speak. She got pretty good at the jumps and obedience games
we played in the garden and I was learning bout how to ask her
to do these things using enthusiasm as the motivation. 'Look,
come on, we can do this...' I wish my parents could have
looked out of the window to see this.

I was 9 when Mum got taken in to hospital to have Jonny.
Something had gone wrong and she was in there for 3 months.
Sadie went to kennels, Me & Tony went to Nan's.

Sheba had long since gone and she had Bridie, another rough
collie. Bridie had a long, long pedigree - she also had a
long, long nose... so long she could not close her mouth
properly. For a young dog she may have looked beautiful but
she couldn't / wouldn't do anything.I would walk her and
should float along behind - I had always dreamt of breeding
Old English Mastiffs when I was grown up. I decided I no
longer liked the idea of breeding beautiful pedigrees.

Jonny was born and we all came home. Sadie loved the baby. She
would, at any time when we were together, take my hand in her
mouth and take me to the crib, which she would stand up
against, watching. I realised that this was my childhood dream
- Sadie was talking to me. I realised then too that she had
been all along. It was my fault for not listening.

Dad's business started going wrong. We had to sell the house.
Sadie went to kennels & we moved around in rented
accommodation for a while. Sadie was my only friend and I
missed her. Eventually we found a place where Sadie could
come. It was great to have her back but she had been
disturbed. She had never been totally housetrained - due to
her fear of punishment - Dad's failing business made him even
worse & his bad temper was becoming more & more viscous. Sadie
messed the floor, Sadie jumped on the kitchen counter & stole
food, Sadie's punishments were beatings so bad I thought he'd
kill her. I would scream & cry, I would get some to.

Eventually, by the time I was 10 we found a cottage they could
afford and Dad started his business again. He struggled &
struggled and was becoming nastier and nastier. We all just
kept out of the way. Mum & Dad would go out to the Pub and I
would look after my brothers - while they were out we were
fine. Luckily they were out a lot. I was 14 when Dulcie, my
sister was born. I couldn't see why they did this - I was
already pretty much the only mother Jonny knew, Dad's business
was failing again and we had to sell the house again. Rented
accommodation again - no dogs. Sadie went to stay at Dad's
business property for a while. It was a fair way away and I
went with Dad to work on Saturdays when I could - but he
didn't want me there. I saw her loose her 'terrierness' and
she looked so sad - then Mum took her to kennels, this time
for good. I was completely broken by this but could do nothing
else.

Things got worse & to be honest I blocked most of my memory of
the in-between years. I jumped into the first job I could get
to get me away from home as soon as possible & not so much
chose a career as made an escape. I left home but was so hard
up I worked day & night just for rent and food. I was doing
hairdressing - poor choice for a young girl nigh on phobic of
people. It did help bring me back out of myself but I knew I
was playing the wrong game. My boss at the hairdressers found
me the job at the sign makers and I was finally able to start
doing what I was good at. Unfortunately just in time for the
early 90's recession... so for the love of the job I struggled
on low wages and living in bedsits

All this time I could not have a dog. I needed a stable home
environment & I struggled & struggled on low wages just hoping
this dream would come true... In between time everybody's dog
was my dog. I was always willing to walk them & learn from
them. People were always happy to get out of walkies if there
was a willing volunteer... and I realised how much Sadie had
taught me. From JRT's to Rotties & Danes.. they responded to
enthusiasm, eye contact and body stance.

It never, ever occurred to me that you could get job as a dog
trainer except for in the police or army...

I had learnt my own ways of handling dogs, from dogs... not
problem dogs or aggressive dogs but generally peoples pets who
generally appreciated the attention.

I met Pete, we bought our home and I begged, bribed near
enough blackmailed my boss to let me bring a dog to work -
much of it on the grounds that I had worked beside him and
helped him through the grey days of recession - it was payback
time. He gave in & we got Stone.

She knew 'sit', she knew 'stay' and she was pretty good on the
lead. No was the stop it command ~ and on command she would
stop. She was, as I have mentioned many times before, in a
real mess both physically & emotionally, but we worked on this
on the basis that we only ever offered a 'no' when it was for
reasons of her own safety and offered her lots and lots of
praise - just for being there. Her confidence grew -

Eventually - behaviour became a popular thing on TV and I
could see 'behaviourists' putting methods in to play that I
had already used - namely Barking Mad (BBC TV) My interest in
this side started a revival and I started looking around the
internet. Then discovered alt.animals.dog and could share a
few of my ideas - Stone's problem with her flank sucking
really became an issue in May this year. Looking for an answer
which no one in my ng could help me with I started looking at
the others - inc. this one. I posted My Girl here in about
July time and had a few responses - I got sent Jerry's book
and for the very first time I read a completely passive means
of dog training. I think of Ivan, I think of poor Sadie...
and I talk to people and hear them tell me of the time they
had to beat there dog for chewing or running off... and I know
from Sadie and I know from Stone that it is not necessary -
but then without showing them it's hard to prove it and too,
with all theory and no practice it's hard to make it sound
like a real means whereas they watch uncle Matty work miracles
with his choke collar and they love the convenience of crating
their dogs - so to prove it I need to come here and put these
ideas across and learn from them.

I hope that gives you good insight as to why I like jerry's
book.

As for Jerry himself, when I thanked him for his book he was
as nice a person as one could communicate with. I see that he
is sometimes nasty, I can see that it's a pain ~ but too can I
see that in his mind he's standing up for the likes of poor
Ivan & Sadie.. and even to a degree me as a young girl.
That's not what I want... but I can see why. His sanity?
Questionable, as probably too is my own. It's taken me a long
long time to be able to stand up on my own and say and do as I
believe rather than hiding in shadows - a right I am not now
going to give up quickly... Jerry has got good stuff to say -
I can see also that some things may be questionable or could
be improved upon but the concept of a completely passive means
of working with dogs, or indeed any animal, has got to be an
ideal worth reaching for.
http://website.lineone.net/~diana_pete.attwood "sionnach"

O.k. jesus. I just wanted to comment on it. Figures you
people would start a fight over that.

Nobody's "fighting about it"- a few people are
*discussing* it with Diana.
. Why waste time crying about

he said she said blah blah blah.

Nobody is "crying about he said she said". Diana asked a
question, and
people are answering it. If you don't like it, don't read
it. And for somebody who doesn't like fighting, you seem to
have a rather combative attitude.
If you didn't want the subject discussed, why did you
bother to comment on
it?

Help some people! we can decide who advice to take.

Marisa, this is a *discussion* forum. It actually doesn't
exist for the
purpose of helping people, though most of us are more than
willing to give advice if it's asked for.

Message 2 in thread
From: Amy Dahl (***@oakhillkennel.com)
Subject: Re: whoa - very long but you asked for it.

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Date: 2001-11-10 05:52:08 PST

Read carefully if you interested, because I know how easy it
is to miss things, grab the wrong end of the stick etc &
misinterpret... done it myself a million times. It also goes
quite in depth about the dogs I lived with as a child and
the methods my parents used to train both the dogs and us.

I read it carefully, Diana. I can empathize better than you
probably know. I am not inclined to go into such detail about
myself, but will say that, as with you, dogs have been my
"salvation" from a less-than-ideal past.

I would appreciate it if you would read the following. Those
of us Jerry slams are not your dad. Some of us use physical
means to train our dogs--but they are worlds away from the
pointless punishments that teach nothing but fear. In my
case, if the dogs didn't respond with confidence and
enthusiasm (and rapid learning), I'd find another method or
quit altogether.

All-sweetness-and-no-corrections is a pretty normal response
to the experience of physical abuse (of course, repeating the
pattern of abuse is another). But IMO it is possible to go
another step beyond that and recognize that many dogs like to
work. They like to learn and do complex things in partnership
with their person, and derive great confidence and stability
from this kind of activity. My observations suggest that the
"payoff" to the dog's happiness is well worth the few
corrections they experience.

And crate training, which you decry, makes it very easy to
housetrain a dog without the punishments you found so
ineffective, without so much as saying "no," and in a very
short time. My first puppy had it figured out in three days.
I had never even thought about training a dog before. It's a
matter of setting the puppy up to do things right.

I read what you wrote. I paid attention; I respect your point
of view. If you're ever in the Eastern U.S., plan to come by
North Carolina and I'll show you some dogs who LOVE their work
and are bursting with confidence--not to challenge what you've
written, but to introduce you to another aspect of potential
canine happiness and well-being.

Amy Dahl
Message 3 in thread
From: Jerry Howe (***@bellsouth.net)
Subject: Re: whoa - very long but you asked for it.

View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, alt.pets.dogs.labrador
Date: 2001-11-10 09:04:35 PST

Hello lying frosty dahl,

Read carefully if you interested, because I know how easy
it is to miss things, grab the wrong end of the stick etc
& misinterpret... done it myself a million times. It also
goes quite in depth about the dogs I lived with as a child
and the methods my parents used to train both the dogs and

us.

As stated. Most of our lying dog abusing Thugs are victims of
abuse, or they wouldn't HURT dogs to train them, and they
CERTAINLY wouldn't LIE about what they do to defend their
actions and beliefs...FACT.

I would appreciate it if you would read the following.
Those of us Jerry slams are not your dad.

That's right. I started off with that loudmouth drunken dog
abuser dogman and professor lying doc "scruff shake" dermer
and and professora "chin cuff absolutely doesn't mean slap"
gingold. Expose and cut off the head..., and now we're down
the the commercial purveyor of "PRESSURE" (PAIN and DEATH)...
that be YOU, lying frosty dahl. That be you and your pals
cindymooreon and lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn and our shelter
dog killers like janet boss, john richardson and mikey ball et
al.

Some of us use physical means to train our dogs-

You hurt and intmidate dogs because you're not bright enough
to outwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog.

-but they are worlds away from the pointless punishments

Pointless or "effective" are moot issues. You HURT dogs
because you don't know any better ways of handling and
training them. You say you're an expert professional trainer.

I've discredited you. Competent trainers do not HURT dogs FOR
LOVE or MONEY.

that teach nothing but fear.

There ain't no way you can suppose that whatever justifies you
applying "PRESSURE" to a dog, is going to result in anything
but MISTRUST and FEAR.

In my case,

In your case you've been proven to be a liar on top of being a
dog abuser. That's gonnna cost you BIG TIME. You've libeled my
machine THAT SAVES DOG'S LIVE'S, dahl. That means I'm gonna
take you for everything your worth... WATCH.

if the dogs didn't respond with confidence and enthusiasm
(and rapid learning), I'd find another method or quit
altogether.

Here's the deal... I'll give you thirty days to close out your
dog training business and I forget all about you... all you
have to do is retract your statements about Doggy Do Right
(And Kitty Will Too) and explain that you had no information
about my machine and that you spoke in error because of you
unfamiliarity with appropriate dog training and the technology
involved in BIOSOUND. Send me an email and I'll have an
agreement drawn and noterized.

Otherwise, you lose the farm. Simple, huh?

All-sweetness-and-no-corrections is a pretty normal response
to the experience of physical abuse (of course, repeating
the pattern of abuse is another).

That's part of your BIG LIE, dahl. You hurt and kill dogs.

But IMO it is possible to go another step
beyond that and recognize that many dogs like to work.

I train real life working dogs, dahl. You train dogs for
points. Is that why you got to pinch and twist their ears and
beat them with sticks and choke and shock and hang them when
they object to being beaten, choke, hit, and shocked? For
POINTS? Don't you know your dogs would work harder and better
if they were part of the team instead of being victims of your
Neanderthal mentality? Do you believe that hurting a dog to
make IT pick up a dead birdie is moore important than an
attack dog working to protect his family? If Jerry don't NEED
to HURT "dangerous" dogs to make them safe with families, why
then do you NEED to HURT and intimidate dogs to make them do
the MOST NATURAL thing in the world for a Retriever dog to do?
Hmm? Sounds like we got CHEDDAR.

They like to learn and do complex things in partnership with
their

person,

Is that so? Why then do you need to employ "PRESSURE?"

and derive great confidence and stability from this kind of
activity.

You think dogs enjoy being shocked pinched and beaten? If that
was so, you wouldn't NEED to LIE about what you do to dogs.
That proves you intentionally hurt dogs because you have NO
regard for them.

My observations suggest that the "payoff" to the dog's
happiness is well worth the few corrections they experience.

That's why I came here to put you outta the dog business.

And crate training, which you decry, makes it very easy to
housetrain a dog without the punishments you found so
ineffective,

That doesn't stand up to scrutiny lying frosty dahl, just like
the rest of your lies. Crating inhibits HOWESbreaking by
teaching the dog the crate is its HOWES and your HOWES is his
territory... FIGURE IT OUT, DIRTBAG.

without so much as saying "no," and in a very short time.

Sorry, you're a dog abusing lying Thug. Either that, or you
just don't know any better. I strongly recommend you accept my
offer to get the heel outta this business.

My first puppy had it figured out in three days. I had
never even thought about training a dog before.

Perhaps that's why I say most of our behavior problems come
from inappropriate and ineffective methods of handling and
training.

It's a matter of setting the puppy up to do things right.

OR YOU HURT THEM.

I read what you wrote. I paid attention; I respect your
point of

view.

First of all, you're a proven liar. Secondly, you're a dog
abuser. Thirdly, YOU GOT CHEDDAR. Me. I'm your Cheddar.

If you're ever in the Eastern U.S., plan to come by
North Carolina and I'll show you some dogs who LOVE their
work and are bursting with confidence--not to challenge what
you've written, but to introduce you to another aspect of
potential canine happiness and well-being.

INDEED. I look forward to you and cindymooreon demonstrating
your methods in front of a criminal judge and jury on charges
of animal abuse with ME as expert witness for the prosecution.
And I'll be glad to represent any civil cases if anyone will
come forward with a complaint about temperament problems in
the dogs you've abused.

Amy Dahl

And I look forward to meeting you in civil court to accept
your property as judgement for the damage you've tried to
cause my Doggy Do Right (And Kitty Will Too).

So, do as you see fit. Today's 11/10/01. You got thirty days
to think about your future and your retirement and your
estate, if you have heirs.

"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe
There Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is
Anything But Destructive," amy "Get A 30"- 40" Stick. CHUCK
IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand," As it
catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the dog
is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable
without any ear pinch, you are finished" "This is continued
resistance to your increasing authority, and the job is not
done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck it
solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!" "(stay on the ear
until it does)" "(perhaps because the ear is getting tender,
or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" "You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply" Try pinching the ear between the metal casing
and the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in" "but will squeal, thrash
around, and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch"
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb" "even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against
that" "Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance" dahl.

"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.

And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."

"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."

And here's one from me:

!CAUTION! Dog abusing lying Thugs. Enter at your own peril!
You are responsible for your own loss of credibility and
damages to careers and reputations resultant from being
exposed and discredited. Proceed at your own risk. This is a
violence free zone. Violators will be subject to prolonged
emotional, social and professional punishment and will be
pursued to the gates of Heel and kept within under guard of a
Wits' End Trained Dog.

------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------

dejablues

2003-09-16 02:16:27 UTC

Would your boss smack you if you forgot to turn in that important report or
if you didn't buss the tables well enough? I can't believe that people see
fit to smack little children and not treat them with even an iota of
respect that they would give to the common stranger on the street. When they
are small you can redirect them, much the same with dogs. When they are
bigger, they can help you at the stove as long as you are there to
supervise.
We've had only one really close call in 14 yrs of child-raising (OS ran out
into the street to catch the bus, and a truck was speeding by.) We didn't
strike him. The horrified reaction of me and the truck driver was enough for
him. Hitting would have been just cruel.
I admit I have smacked the kids (and the dogs) . But that was just because
*I* was out of line and at a loss for something to do. It was always
counter-productive, and the learning *never* came about as a result of the
physical pain.

Post by Tara O.
Just a quick follow-up because I left this out before....
You know the saying "this will hurt me more than it will hurt you, but

its

Post by Tara O.
for your own good"? There's alot of truth to that statement.

Sometimes

Post by Tara O.
parents have to do things they don't want to do and that the child may

not

Post by Tara O.
like but it *is* for their own good.

Well I've only had to use it twice with Amie in 8 years and I've never use

the "before the deed" version but the "I know you won't believe this but
that hurt me more than it hurt you." One was a signifcant smack of the
hand because she tried to touch a hot burner after being told repeatedly

stay away from the stove (yes, I was standing right there but she snuck up
behind me and reached for the stove). I hated smacking her but, like alot
of kids, she either didn't believe she'd get hurt or my warnings only

spiked

her curiosity further. The second time was recently when she broke a
neighbor's window and we both knew the neighbor was furious. I made her go
over there and confront the neighbor and allowed him to tell her just what
he thought of kids who break windows. I hated it and didn't want someone
else making my kid feel an inch tall (and causing her to cry) but its part
of growing up, learning and taking responsibility for your actions. I

felt

like the worst mom in the world for several days after that meeting w/the
neighbor whereas Amie had already moved past the incident by the next day.
The way I see it, to always make sure you are able to intervene on a

child's

behalf is doing nothing more than managing the child's life to every

degree.

You're not teaching them lessons and I know quite a few people who were
managed so well by their mamas that they're practically helpless as

adults.

None of us, as adults, can honestly say that we've never learned by first
either being allowed to make mistakes or suffering consequences from a
mistake made. Which lessons stand out the most...the ones where your

parent

intervened on your behalf and then told you nicely why not to do
something...or the ones where you suffered consequences? As for the

"always

who

is punished for coming when called learns quickly not to come when called.
A dog who is physically punished often tends to be hand-shy because they
remember the hand hurts. I'm not advocating hitting or using harsh
punishment regularly but this goes to illustrate my point about
hand-smacking a kid. The kid will remember the hand-smack and associate

with getting too close to the stove just like the dog who remembers being
smacked when he comes to his owner when called.
--
Tara

Tara O.

2003-09-16 02:30:31 UTC

Post by dejablues
Would your boss smack you if you forgot to turn in that important report or
if you didn't buss the tables well enough?

Its not comparable.

Post by dejablues
I can't believe that people see
fit to smack little children and not treat them with even an iota of
respect that they would give to the common stranger on the street.

Since you responded to me, I will assume the above is directed at me. Under
that assumption, all I can say is you don't know me, don't know how I rear
my child or what my beliefs are so you are making a very sweeping judgement
without any facts.

--
Tara

dejablues

2003-09-16 03:41:03 UTC

We can only go by what you have posted.

Post by dejablues
Would your boss smack you if you forgot to turn in that important report

Post by dejablues
if you didn't buss the tables well enough?

Its not comparable.

Post by dejablues
I can't believe that people see
fit to smack little children and not treat them with even an iota of
respect that they would give to the common stranger on the street.

Since you responded to me, I will assume the above is directed at me.

Under

Post by Tara O.
that assumption, all I can say is you don't know me, don't know how I rear
my child or what my beliefs are so you are making a very sweeping judgement
without any facts.
--
Tara

Tara O.

2003-09-16 04:00:04 UTC

Post by dejablues
We can only go by what you have posted.

Well then why not do exactly that? Show me where I posted that I endorse
smacking children as a general way of parenting. What I posted was about a
hand-smack in response to a scenario that could have resulted in serious
injuries to the child. That does *not* translate into smacking or "hitting"
as a general rule. As for "hitting" that word has a different, more
serious, definition than smacking.

--
Tara

mikael

2003-09-16 05:27:07 UTC

Post by dejablues
Would your boss smack you if you forgot to turn in that important report

Post by dejablues
if you didn't buss the tables well enough?

Its not comparable.

Post by dejablues
I can't believe that people see
fit to smack little children and not treat them with even an iota of
respect that they would give to the common stranger on the street.

here's the facts.

You killed your own dog.

any questions?

michael
live...
http://dogtv.com

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-17 02:36:47 UTC

HOWEDY tara o.,

Post by dejablues
Would your boss smack you if you forgot to turn in that

important report

You could get fired EZ for that.

Post by dejablues
or if you didn't buss the tables well enough?

You wouldn't get fired as fast doin labor.

Post by Tara O.
Its not comparable.

You mean, it's not like chokin a dog for not sittin
or HURTIN IT for pullin on leash or aggression
or spraying aversives in their face or lettin them
FIGHT IT HOWET cause you don't know HOWE
to do anything else than HURT the dog.

Post by dejablues
I can't believe that people see> fit to smack little children

That's HOWE COME we got the crime rate and substance
abuse and violence problems we got.

Post by dejablues
and not treat them with even an iota of respect

Precisely.

Post by dejablues
that they would give to the common stranger on the street.

We don't have the RIGHT under LAW to do that to a stranger.
HOWE COME would we let a lovin parent HURT and INTIMIDATE
their dogs in front of their children? That's teachin them to
become
abusers when they grow up, like tara o and her pals here abHOWETS.

Post by Tara O.
Since you responded to me,

That's cause you was shootin your psychotic yap off again.

Post by Tara O.
I will assume the above is directed at me.

"ASSume?" Can't you read the header?

Post by Tara O.
Under that assumption,

BEWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

You're a MENTAL CASE.

Post by Tara O.
all I can say is you don't know me,

We know you HURT your dog and KILLED IT.

Post by Tara O.
don't know how I rear my child

You taught your daughter April to fear and hate
and hurt and kill her dog Summer because you
wouldn't stop jerkin and choking and spraying
her with aversives and lockin IT in a box when
the neighbor's kids visited.

Took just a couple weeks to make Summer
"FEAR AGGRESSIVE" AFRAID OF KIDS,
like chrisman dinan's DEAD DOG Usal...

Post by Tara O.
or what my beliefs are

You're a pathetic looser who hurts and kills
dogs to compensate for your fragile defective
ego, weak fearful mind, and inferiority complexes.

Post by Tara O.
so you are making a very sweeping judgement
without any facts.

All the FACTS are in your posting history, tara o..

The Puppy Wizard told you every step of the way
what you was doin to Summer was gonna cause
the PROBLMES YOU GOT.

Post by Tara O.
--
Tara

---------- Forwarded Message ----------

Subject: Re: Discipline
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:43:46 -0500
From: Amanda <***@dcfwatch.com>
To:

On Wednesday 15 January 2003 01:54, "N wrote:

i responded in katie's mail.. youll get it before this one :) i'm
not the
expert.. mr. howe is teaching me.. and im figuring alot out..
plus its just
coming to me.. two months ago i would cry cuz i was soooo lost...
and now i
go ahead and live it... like he gave me just enough for my brain
to fill in
the rest?

when i would swat in my early parent years.. up until i got
crunchy this last
year.. i swore spanking was great.. a lil bit of fear in yo' momma
is what i
would say.. and my family supported me.. you can spank and not be
abusive.
then i felt guilty... not because i knew better, but becuase you
guys and
others did it wihtout spanking.. better than me... but i would
still say i
just have bad kids.. then i started feeling guilty.. asked for
help.. got
some advice and it worked some.. but not much.. enought o make me
think i did it.. then it wouldn't help..

then i heard him tell someone on the news group"Do you think
hitting
babies is intelligent" and i was like whoa.. now i feel like cocka
and pray
every time i distract them that they can somehow grow up not to
hate me..
and i pray i caugh myself in enough time.

Post by Tara O.
Could you possibly be a little more specific about what you do?

How

Post by Tara O.
you implement this? I have spanked, I look at each time as a

failure

Post by Tara O.
on my part, either in communication, or not reading the kids
correctly or in time to head off a meltdown. IT's almost always

been

Post by Tara O.
out of frustrtation. It's not something I want to do. I would

really

Post by Tara O.
be interested in hearing more about exactly how this works...
N
I was and always have been a spanker. It is all i knew how.. i
never, ever wanted to be.. but i was. my house/kids were out

Post by Tara O.
control.. i was always stressed. Since he and his wife came

down

Post by Tara O.
sunday we've had a HUGE change... for the first time the kids

didn't

Post by Tara O.
destroy my house before i woke up... my 3yo was in my bed

coloring

Post by Tara O.
waiting for us to wake up... this is the first time she ever

used paper
:)

Post by Tara O.
she usually does walls, furniture.
Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise.. and it works. I have

a 6 yo,

Post by Tara O.
3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very bad-a$$ 19 month old.

They

Post by Tara O.
are all smarter than I am and know it :)
There has not been a temper tantrum in two days in my house.
You guys have no idea how great this is. But best of all..

this

Post by Tara O.
method does NOT use the evil eye or a tone of that is in any

way

Post by Tara O.
short of absolute praise.. no shouting.. not even a quiet

Chloe!.. nada..

Post by Tara O.
ONLY praise.
They even taught my kids not to take candy unless i say so..

(my

Post by Tara O.
oldest will literally let you pierce her ears for candy.. it's

been done twice

Post by Tara O.
and i keep taking em out) and now the bag of blow pops i forget

on the floor

Post by Tara O.
in my closet (where we keep the girl's dressed) is still there

and NO ONE

Post by Tara O.
has eaten one!
My 3 yo is even helping me pick up the house.. the baby took my
lingerie chest apart.. and she cleaned it up! first time!

They don't

Post by Tara O.
even go out the open door without my offering it! they helped

me sort

Post by Tara O.
laundry.. clean the living room... im amazed. The 3 yo got

some yogurt

Post by Tara O.
from the fridge and walked to our kitchen table, sat down and

ate it.. she

Post by Tara O.
REFUSES to sit at the table and eat!
We also taught them and the dogs to sit pretty so> when they're

climbing

Post by Tara O.
on my couch.. i go Can you show me how you sit pretyt??

Post by dejablues
and they ALL hop down and show me to sit pretty with their

feet NOT

Post by Tara O.
on the cofee table.. hands friggin folded.. i almost fell

over.. thanks for

Post by Tara O.
reminding me to share my joy! I'm not a spanker! I don't even

yell! lol!

Post by Tara O.
here i picked names that shout well and i don't need em!!!

Post by dejablues
how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?/

--
Preserving Families One Day at a Time
http://www.dcfwatch.com

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that will
reach to himself. -- 1776 From the American Crisis by Thomas
Jefferson
--
Preserving Families One Day at a Time
http://www.dcfwatch.com

He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
enemy from
oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a
precedent that
will reach to himself. -- 1776 From the American Crisis by Thomas
Jefferson

Here's two Pauls:

Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: ***@cfl.rr.com
To: ***@aol.com

Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.

My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.

When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.

I will write to Amanda about the video.

I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.

Thanks again
Paul

Post by dejablues
=============================

Post by dejablues
I have been reading these forums for a few weeks
now, and am getting really confused!!
but is there actually anyone who has used the
methods in this manual with any success ?

100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, BY NEARLY EVERY FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Student.

It's the GENTLEST, FASTEST, MOST EFFECTIVE,
NON FORCE, NON CONFRONTATIONAL, NON BRIBE, SCIENTIFIC and
PSYCHOLOGICAL
technique in the
Whole Wild World, BAR NONE.

Post by dejablues
I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon
and really would like to know the best and most
effective way of training without using food treats
or violence (i do agree with what the guy says
about food treats and violence)
Thanks for any intelligent replies

I have tried his methods and found them extremely
effective. There are several areas in particular I
found useful.
He teaches you and the dog to pay attention to each
other all the time. He teaches you to have such good
communication with your dog you don't need leash
corrections or shock collars or even food, you can get
the dogs attention any time you like by calling it or with
a snap of your fingers.
When I trained both my dogs to "heel" or walk close
to me I ended up going to the parks and teaching
them without a lead at all, that ensured I had to use
good communication and was unable to be tempted
to use the lead to correct them.
Another part of the training I agree with is not using
the "policeman" approach, where you tell a dog "no"
or react with it in such a way that you become involved
in the behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach
often results in a dog ceasing the behaviour when you
are about but doing it when you aren't (bin raiding,
counter surfing etc).
Basically you are taught to make your dog a good
friend who likes and wants to work for you for the
pleasure of working for you (setting the hierarchy
is included in this), teach it to recall reliably,
then to do everything else (sit, stay down etc etc).
Unwanted behaviours are addressed as they occur.
If you understand what you are trying to achieve and
are prepared to work with it you can get great results.
Paul

===============================

Post by Tara O.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.
Subject: Jerry Howe
Hi,
Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
what you have to say of his training methods.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bousie" <***@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Don Fitz'" <***@hotmail.com>; <***@DCFWatch.com>
Cc: <***@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe

Post by Tara O.
If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
already have a good idea about what I think.
His methods are the best I have come across. They
aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so if
you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother. If
you go his way then you have to forget all the other
gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
the results.
You can't combine his methods with other training
methods, not until you understand what you are
trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
then just a snip of what they suggest which works
in parallel with the Wits End concept.
His methods make you as the trainer completely
responsible for your actions, his methods make
you think and work out your own solutions for
any given situation, the default (the recall) is
always there to get things under control again.
His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
work together which is surely the best way to be.
His methods don't use force or intimidation but
they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
can achieve almost nothing.
If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
request you call him / her to you, since the recall
is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
"equal" position.
His methods are very good, his understanding of
dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.
Paul Bousie

==============================

Post by Tara O.
Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
all, people who find the manual useful are those that
don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
advice in his manual are people who have already
tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
the poor results.
The more I think about the methods he suggests the
more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
our values and I don't believe they are capable of
understanding them either, so to train them we use
methods they understand. That means abstract
training, doing sometimes what appears to
almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
If you are purely result orientated then you will not
find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
and love to work WITH them then his manual is
your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
it, it's very obvious why.
When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
pursue that behaviour.
Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
Paul

Post by Tara O.
Hi There Jerry
Its Nevyn. Sorry Ive not been posting, but I've been
working weekend work at the tracks with the greyhounds
(thanks to you!).
Well my dogs are the envy of all on my street. I can
have them out in the yard with me, take them walking
without a leash, they will do any command with no
hesitation. And they don't bark anymore! Thanks to
your machine!
Oh yeah, I loaned your machine to several friends
"I would say my dogs are well trained, but they suffer
severe anxiety when no body is home. This machine
quietened them almost instantly - still they barked,
in the beginning, but just one or two barks. Then
slowly they just stopped... beginning to bark, then
instantly stopping.
It took only 2 weeks, and we did nothing.
Truly amazing;
I have recommomeded it to my family, and perhaps
they will buy one. Its a shame you don't sell them publicly".
-- Kylie, 30, on dogs Lili (11 yr mutt bitch) and Sheeba (4 yr
Rotty X)
"My two dogs barked insanely when someone would
go past. With this little machine they quietened right
down, and even became partly obedient, and we did
nothing!
Great stuff.
We ran it only on the lowest setting, too!"
- Ed, 65, on his two male Dobermans, 5 yrs old.
Well I have some more, and am collecting more,
but I only have one machine so its a slow process.
Once again I say thankyou Jerry! My family was
on the verge of giving them up! :(
But no longer :)
=====================
Subject: doggie do right
Date: 2002-08-01 06:57:15 PST
doggie do right rocks!!
We were sent one of these fantastic machines 5 months
ago to see if it would help with our rambunctious mutts.
The doggy do right has done more than just work...it
has worked miracles!
Our pair of noisier than freight-train doggies were barking
so loud at our neighbours and passers by that we were just
about ready to find them new homes. But within just two
months of using the Doggy Do Right they were nice and
quiet and stopped barking at the neighbours.
They did relapse a little when their owner went away,
but we started the program again and within days
they were both quiet and obedient once more.
Our doggies have now not barked unnecessarily
for over 2 months.
Thanks Jerry! You have made my dreams come true!
Aimee.
HOWEDY Group
Here some SUCCESS STORIES ive had using
JERRYS MANUAL
1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, agressive,
pulled on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw, fought
between each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerrys manual,
they were calm, friends, my companions.
2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK", the
girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the moment I
dropped him by their noses.
3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping at
the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRYS
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVENT BARKED ONCE!
Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND WELCOMED
HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !
4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH - lock
him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS AND
HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE !
5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT - HAD
TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK - ONE WEEK
ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR TOLD ME TO
PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS FOR SALE !
Quite amazing to - I thought they were just dull
coloured dogs, but after I had removed the fear
and anxiety their hairs coloured up amazingly.
6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER BALL!
She carried it around all day and night - 3 DAYS on Jerrys
MANUAL and she now DROPS it when u ASK her to!
BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!
Nevyn

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-15 16:34:49 UTC

HOWEDY tara o.,

Post by Tara O.
Sometimes with children, the *best* method of getting
them to remember that something is dangerous

You mean, their ABUSERS?

Post by Tara O.
is to create a situation that they will forever remember...

INDEEDY. Children and dogs never forget being ABUSED.

Post by Tara O.
like a hand-smack

To teach gentleness, caring, love, and trust...

Post by Tara O.
or a scarey story.

Yeah. You rely on pain fear force intimidation avoidance
bribes and confinement, instead of INTELLIGENCE.

Post by Tara O.
I am a product of generations worth of family who believed in

spanking.

The fruit don't fall far from the fruitcake. Does it, ABUSER.

Post by Tara O.
I don't advocate spanking

Oh, of curse not!!!

Post by Tara O.
but the simple truth is that

ABUSE TEACHES ABUSE.

Abuse trainscends generations.

"The son of a slave, is a slave."

You're the victim of ABUSE, tara o..

You fear recognizing and admitting it, cause that would mean
your mamma and papa was ABUSERS, and you likeWIZE,
are an abuser.

You LIE to HIDE from YOUR HUMAN NATURE from
yourself, the hallmark of a NATURAL BORN COWARD,
LIAR, and ABUSER.

It's a generational thing...

Post by Tara O.
it never killed me.

It's not done doin it's work, tara o.. It's still too early in
your
lifetime to observe The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME in
your own physical debility, but we DO see it in your mental
state of DIS-EASE.

Post by Tara O.
I best remember the situations where a spanking occured
as punishment/correction over the ones where I just got a
verbal warning.

As a VICTIM of abuse, your mind constantly thinks of PAIN
FEAR FORCE INTIMIDATION and SHAME. You don't
recognize that cause IT HURTS.

Post by Tara O.
A hand smack will startle the child,

And teaches IT to likeWIZE, BECOME AN ABUSER.

Post by Tara O.
especially if he/she isn't accustomed to such things.

Well, let's all give beatins IN ADVANCE, to accustom
the child or dog to the ABUSE IT'S gonna get when
their ABUSER runs HOWETA ideas, information,
intelligence, and ability to control themselves.

Post by Tara O.
It'll make the kid remember that smack and that getting
near the stove is BAD.

Perhaps that's HOWE COME some people can't cook a meal?

Post by Tara O.
Telling a scarey story about what happens to kids who cross
the road without looking may seem mean as well

There's a difference between REAL scary stories and
the crap you'd tell a child to put FEAR into IT. You'd
prefer to SCARE the child HOWETA crossing the road
than to teach IT to cross safely, like a seeing eye dog.
A dog allegedly has the same reasoning ability as a
two to four year old child. Seems a child can learn to
do things long before they're physically capable of doin
them... just like a puppy.

Teaching a child to cross a road safely is no different
than training a guide dog to cross safely. Do you recommend
tellin a guide dog scary stories and beatin IT for not crossing
pupperly?

OF CURSE YOU DO!!!

You'd threaten and choke and beat IT.

That's the NATURE of an ABUSER, tara o..

Post by Tara O.
but you know what?

Yeah. Abused children and dogs grow up to be ABUSERS,
tara o., like yourself.

Post by Tara O.
the kid remembers that story and will think twice before
crossing the road vs. the kid who has just been
nicely told to look both ways.

That's sheer idiocy, tara o.. The Puppy Wizard sez you
got a bad case of The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME.

Post by Tara O.
Sometimes, with life or death scenarios,

Ahhhh. You mean, FEAR. When the ABUSER is AFRAID,
justifies HURTIN innocent VICTIMS for their own good.

Post by Tara O.
instilling momentary fear

FEAR LASTS FOREVER, tara o.. The Puppy Wizard
KNOWS FEAR, tara o.. The Puppy Wizard KNOWS
PAIN, tara o.. The Puppy Wizard KNOWS ABUSE,
and USES IT WELL, when HE is AFRAID and runs
HOWETA IDEAS and INFORMATION and is AFRAID
enough to HURT and KILL what HE'S AFRAID OF.

Post by Tara O.
or startlement in a child is the quickest and most effective
way of both ensuring the kid's safety at that time as well
as making sure the kid remembers not to do the same
thing again in the future.

Is that so? CITES PLEASE??? The Puppy Wizard sez
you're LYING to support your ABUSE, cause to do otherWIZE
would INDICT YOUR PARENTS as ABUSERS.

Children of abuse never want to BLAME their parents as ABUSERS.

Post by Tara O.
Different strokes for different folks

NO. Not noMOORE, tara o.. You're an ABUSER. That's
sumpthin that's indellibly imbued on your psyche. You
NEED TO ABUSE to justify your parents abuse... so you
don't have to deal with yourself, BEING A VICTIM OF ABUSE.

Post by Tara O.
and all that but I'll go on the record as saying I don't
disagree with something like a hand-smack.

Or KILLIN your DEAD DOG Summer, cause YOU ABUSED HER.

Post by Tara O.
Just jumping in to remove the child has taught the kid
absolutely nothing.

RIGHT. Except that MOMMY CARES ENOUGH not to want
to see her baby get HURT. But you'd PREFER to HURT
insetad, cause THAT makes YOU FEEL POWERFUL and
IN CONTROL.

People ABUSE dogs and children because they're COWARDS.
You HURT and KILL dogs to compensate for your fragile defective
ego's, weak fearful minds, and inferiority complexes.

And the DIS-EASE never stops, it's a MALIGNANCY on your
entire system, which will ultimately make you very ill, and
perhaps
GET YOU DEAD, from autoimune DIS-EASE, like so many of
HOWER DOGS on this forum are SUFFERING and DYING from.

It's called The Puppy Wizard SYNDROME, tara o.. You got it
BIG TIME. So does your daughter April...

Post by Tara O.
Tara

"If You Talk With The Animals, They Will Talk
With You And You Will Know Each Other. If
You Do Not Talk To Them, You Will Not Know
Them, And What You Do Not Know You Will Fear.

What One Fears, One Destroys," Chief Dan George,
adapted with permission from his FREE copy of The
Puppy Wizard's FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual.

---------- Forwarded Message ----------
Subject: Re: Discipline
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:43:46 -0500
i responded in katie's mail.. youll get it before this one :)
i'm not the expert.. mr. howe is teaching me.. and im
figuring alot out.. plus its just coming to me.. two months
ago i would cry cuz i was soooo lost... and now i go ahead and
live it... like he gave me just enough for my brain to fill
in the rest?
when i would swat in my early parent years.. up until i got
crunchy this last year.. i swore spanking was great.. a lil
bit of fear in yo' momma is what i would say.. and my family
supported me.. you can spank and not be abusive.
then i felt guilty... not because i knew better, but becuase
you guys and others did it wihtout spanking.. better than
me... but i would still say i just have bad kids.. then i
started feeling guilty.. asked for help.. got some advice
and it worked some..but not much.. enought to make me
think i did it.. then it wouldn't help..
then i heard him tell someone on the news group"Do you think
hitting babies is intelligent" and i was like whoa.. now i
feel like cocka and pray every time i distract them that they
can somehow grow up not to hate me.. and i pray i caugh myself
in enough time.

Could you possibly be a little more specific about what you
do? How you implement this? I have spanked, I look at each
time as a failure on my part, either in communication, or

not

reading the kids correctly or in time to head off a
meltdown.
IT's almost always been out of frustrtation. It's
not something I want to do. I would really be interested in
hearing more about exactly how this works...
N
I was and always have been a spanker. It is all i knew
how.. i never, ever wanted to be.. but i was. my
house/kids were out of control.. i was always stressed.
Since he and his wife came down sunday we've had a HUGE
change... for the first time the kids didn't destroy my

house

before i woke up... my 3yo was in my bed coloring waiting
for us to wake up... this is the first time she ever used

paper :)

she usually does walls, furniture.
Anyway.. he told me to use sound/praise.. and it works. I
have a 6 yo, 3.5 yo who is psycho child :) and a very
bad-a$$ 19 month old. They are all smarter than I am and
know it :)
There has not been a temper tantrum in two days in my
house. You guys have no idea how great this is. But best
of all.. this method does NOT use the evil eye or a tone of
that is in any way short of absolute praise.. no shouting..
not even a quiet Chloe!.. nada..
ONLY praise.
They even taught my kids not to take candy unless i say
so.. (my oldest will literally let you pierce her ears for
candy.. it's been done twice and i keep taking em out) and
now the bag of blow pops i forget on the floor in my closet
(where we keep the girl's dressed) is still there and NO
ONE has eaten one!
My 3 yo is even helping me pick up the house.. the baby
took my lingerie chest apart.. and she cleaned it up!
first time! They don't even go out the open door without
my offering it! they helped me sort laundry.. clean the
living room... im amazed. The 3 yo got some yogurt from
the fridge and walked to our kitchen table, sat down and
ate it.. she REFUSES to sit at the table and eat!
We also taught them and the dogs to sit pretty so> when
they're climbing on my couch.. i go Can you show me how you
sit pretyt??
and they ALL hop down and show me to sit pretty with
their feet NOT on the cofee table.. hands friggin folded..
i almost fell over.. thanks for reminding me to share my
joy!
I'm not a spanker! I don't even yell! lol!
here i picked names that shout well and i don't need em!!!

how old is your bub amanda? waht's the bub doing?

Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
come forward and actually believe in his training manual.

Robert Crim writes:

I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since
I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough
of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the
posts of Marylin Rammell to believe and use it. This naive
child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marylin for
putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.

The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging
idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe
we would not have had to hold the head of a really
magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the
needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped
his last gasp.

To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog into
good behavior. Naive is believing that people that hide
behind fake names are more honest than people that use
their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog
breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY,
j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.

"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that
people like Jerry Howe and Marylin Rammell are going to
just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you
act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care.

Post by Tara O.
And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
admit to buying and having success with his little black
box.

I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
would never believe the results, so you'll never know.

Post by Tara O.
Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
him! LOL!

I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.

Post by Tara O.
Terri

Yes it was, and that is sad.

Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the
box first?)

Hello People,

Robert Crim was a former Gang Of Thugs Member, and
hated me a much as the rest of our Thugs do. Robert was a
long time friend and prominent contributor to rpdb, till Jerry
came along and smartened him up. He learned the hard
way, and no longer posts to his former pals, because it is
just too painful knowing his pals would rather HURT and
KILL their dogs than to admit that JERRY is RIGHT.

----------------------------------------------

"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-

Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:

CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.

Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
http://www.doggydoright.com

Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-

There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-

The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.

The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.

The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-

The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW ; ~ ) >

ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW ; ~ } >
oo-oo

whatever

2003-09-15 19:43:00 UTC

"The Puppy Wizard" <***@earthlink.net> wrote in news:JSl9b.14501$***@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net:

You need professional help...now.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-15 20:14:39 UTC

HOWEDY whatever,

Post by whatever
You need professional help...now.

Here's a professional trainer of thirty years experience
who rehabilitated her aggressive Dobe NEARLY INSTANTLY,
EZ, FAST, and FOR FREE, followed by the liars, dog abusers,
and MENTAL CASES who'd have her HURT and KILL her dog:

----- Original Message -----
From: ***@aol.com
To: ***@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: The...

Dear Jerry,

It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are
that maligning you and your training manual but
tell them from me that it does work.

Hunter is just doing so well even the people who
advocated putting him down are impressed with him.

I even started using it with the neighbor's dog.
I went over there to help her cut his nails. She
started yelling at him for growling at me.

I told her to tell him what a good boy he is instead.
Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could do
his nails. All 4 feet.

My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull
method and my other dog was trained with treats.
Hunter has gotten his enthusiasm back for his training
and I couldn't be more pleased.

He even tried to kiss a child the other day. Major
break through. This is the dog that a few months
ago tried to eat the kids through the fence. I can
now take him in the car with me again without him
trying to chase cars through the windshield.

So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog
training is Do No Harm.

The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.

Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down.
Hunter was diagnosed aggressive and he is
going to stay alive and by my side where he
belongs.

Thank you so much.

Kay

=============

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.

- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.

Lynn K.

Post by whatever
================

I do know that hitting, hurting
your dog will often make the
dog either aggressive or a fear
biter, neither of which we want to do.

And then we got, matty! Follow his discussion!

And neither does anyone else,
Jerome. No matter
what Jerry Howe states.

"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.

You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for her coment above
regarding her success with The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy
Separation Anxiety / Bed Time Calming Technique (STSA/BTCT)?

Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z, who
commented that his bed time calming technique was quite
similar?

You're scary Marilyn.
Marilyn must be quite a disturbed
individual. I feel very sorry for her
and her family.

BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

I ENJOYED reading your book, and
AGREED with what you had to say.
I find it sick to hear what people
do with their dogs.

Keep in mind that everything he says that
the regular posters of this ng do to their
dogs are lies.
All of it. Every last bit.

All of it?
Ear pinching?
Shock collars?
Spiked chokers?
The regulars lie more in their denials than
Howe does in his accusing of them.

When you compare using sound and
praise to solve a problem with using
shock collars, hanging, and punishment
how can you criticize the use of sound?

BWWWAWHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Post by whatever
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Di,

Post by whatever
just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-
tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
--Marshall

-snip headers etc.
Yes. you're right, I really should find
the book.. they don't have these books
in the local pet stores I frequent, where
do you find Koehler?

I got a nice large print copy from
Amazon.com
Richard

Please try Powell's Books in Portland
Oregon. Their URL is:

http://www.powells.com/

Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both
new and used books on its shelves. You
can order books via e-email.

Koehler Method Of Dog
Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK
HOUSE (0876056575,

========================================================

Here's some quotes and some methods right outta your
koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream
"NO!" into its face for 5 seconds:"

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York:
Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."

Hanging

"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar
and leash are more than adequate for any jerk
or strain that the dog's most frantic actions could
cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately
and fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab.

Before the teeth have reached their target,
the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.

As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned
problems the dog is suspended in mid-air.

However, to let the biting dog recover
his footing while he still had the strength
to renew the attack would be cruelty.

The only justifiable course is to hold him
suspended until he has neither the strength
nor inclination to renew the fight.

When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his
resentment and is lowered to the ground,
he will probably stagger loop-legged for a
few steps, vomit once or twice, and roll
over on his side.

The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued,
on his side, is not pleasant, but do not
let it alarm you

THE REAL "HOOD"

"If your dog is a real "hood" who would
regard the foregoing types of protest as
"kid stuff" and would express his
resentment of your efforts by biting,
your problem is difficult -- and pressing.

"Professional trainers often get these
extreme problems. Nearly always the
"protest biter" is the handiwork of a
person who, by avoiding situations that
the dog might resent, has nurtured the
seeds of rebellion and then cultivated
the resultant growth with under correction.

When these people reap their inevitable
and oftentimes painful harvest, they are
ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have
once rejected because it was incompatible
with the sugary droolings of mealy-
mouthed columnists, breed-ring biddies,
and dog psychologists who, by the
broken skins and broken hearts their
misinformation causes, can be proven guilty
of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
since the dawn of time.

"With more genuine compassion for the
biting dog than would ever be demonstrated
by those who are "too kind" to make a
correction and certainly with more disregard
for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major
operation."

"Since we are presently concerned with
the dog that bites in resentment of the
demands of training, we will set our
example in that situation. (In a later
chapter we will deal with the with the
much easier problem of the dog that
bites someone other than his master."

Are we havin FUN yet?

Got a lite, professor SCRUFF SHAKE?

The Puppy Wizard. <} : ~ ) >

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-18 04:04:37 UTC

Post by whatever
You need professional help...now.

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training

Post by whatever
Hi Jerry,
Send the post to whom ever you wish to. Believe
me I will keep you updated. I got to tell you His
amazing progress almost makes me cry.
Kay Pierce

====================

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training

Post by whatever
Jerry,
I started Hunter on his training using your manual
and training method. What a marked difference in
just a few hours. I
had him in my van and just using the sound with
his remote trainer and telling him he's a good dog
when he started looking like he was going to bark
at a car worked great.
He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him to a
spot that we had used years ago to train, Jerry I
have hope that I can have my happy dog back
soon. And not this tense unhappy creature I live
with now.
He was so happy today. I am looking forward to
getting the machine so that he can stay that way.
Thank you,
Kay Pierce

===================

From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Making Progress

Post by whatever
Hello Jerry,
Hunter and I started working the recall and family
pack exercise today. On leash and in the house
he has a perfect recall.
And I think he really started to relax and enjoy
himself I swear he was laughing.
I had taught him to go to the heel position when he
comes to me years ago. And over the past few months
I have had to tell him to go there. Today he flew into
the heel position each and every time without me saying
a word to him about it.
He has never bounced like that before.
I trained him using conventional methods with a choker and
pinch collar. Over the past few days we have been using his
regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it more.
As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer and when I trained
my latest dog I used all positive reinforcements techniques.
When I trained for that I had been amazed at the results.
Your method takes positive training to the next level and
should really be used by all trainers who call themselves
trainers.
My Hunter is concentrating on me and not on the treat he
thinks he wants. My other dog wants treats before she'll
do anything.
As soon as I get Hunter straightened out she's next.
Thank you so much,
Kay Pierce

===============

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@bellsouth.net>
Cc: <***@aol.com>; <***@yahoo.com>;
<***@thefelixfamily.com>;
<***@hotmail.com>

Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Head Hunter

Post by whatever
Dear Jerry,
Just thought I would write to let you know how
well Hunter is doing. He had been trained using
the conventional methods for obedience. He had
gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar.
Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around. I had also
tried using positive reinforcement methods that I
had been trained in. He was so busy looking for
the treat that he didn't really want to work.
So I went back to using the pinch collar on him
and also a gentle leader when we were in public.
Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and
he did deserve his reputation as a vicious dog.
The vet had recommended that he be put down.
I was in a panic when I found your web site.
Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first
started out with 5 years ago. I am a professional
trainer and it was distressing to me that I could not
help my own dog. I had been told that some dogs
don't respond to any kind of training and that a
vicious dog can never be trusted again.
I disagree!
Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him
with me and he doesn't chase cars as much
anymore which is one of his main problems.
We are working on the dog aggression thing.
And I am confident that will be successful too.
I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that
too is working good. I know of several rescue
groups that would benefit from it.
This is rather long I know but it comes from the
heart. My Head Hunter Green and I have together
along time and have been through so much together.
Thank you for helping me save his life.
Kay Pierce

=========================

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@aol.com>
To: <***@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Jerry the jerk howe

Post by whatever
Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is it's either
his way or your wrong no matter what training method
you use. In a post re: adopting a shelter dog he
stated "fu*k Buster" if you want I can refer you to the
post.
He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was closer I
would pay him a visit. He used your post from July
in his rebuttal
Bob Garrett

----- Original Message -----
From: ***@aol.com
To: ***@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe

I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk. I am a
dog trainer and I have been for almost 30 years. I
believe strongly in positive reinforcement. My youngest
was trained using treats and praise.

My oldest how ever was not trained that way I am ashamed
to say. The result a very dangerous dog. He has problems
with barrier and dominance aggression. A year ago he put
a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal.

When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him
down I found Jerry's website. I was looking for a natural
way to calm my dog and train him all over again as well.

You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to him on the
phone and consulted him about his training methods.
I really grilled him before I even considered using his
methods.

He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is
now a very sweet dog. I get kisses instead of growls.
When he growls or even looks like he is going to bark
I tell him what a good dog he is and right away he shuts
up, looks at me like I'm nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone.

I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have him on major
drugs. I don't! I still use a muzzle on him when I have to
take him to iffy places. But hey, I know he is now a sugar.
And the most important thing he is happy again.

It's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. I
have mine.

Sincerely
Kay

-----------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: ***@aol.com
To: ***@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."

Dear Jerry,

It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training manual but tell them
from me that it does work.

Hunter is just doing so well even the people who advocated
putting him down are impressed with him.

I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails. All 4 feet.

My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.

He even tried to kiss a child the other day.

Major break through.

This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield.

So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training
is
Do No Harm.

The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first
rule.

Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was
diagnosed aggressive and he is going to stay alive and by my
side where he
belongs.

Thank you so much.
Kay

========================

Post by whatever
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Update
Hi Jerry,
Just an update to let you know how things are going.
Hunter is doing really great thanks to you and your
training manual.
I cancelled the appointment with the new vet to get
him re-evaluated for aggression. all weekend long I
had kids run by the fence to try and make him bark.
He didn't!
Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work on his
dog aggression but even that is going good for him.
I have less and less of a problem with him in my
vehicle. He doesn't try so hard to protect
it from the four wheeled monsters that go by.
I think soon I'll be able to leave his window open when
we go down the road and he won't try to jump out at
the cars that go by.
I have shared the manual with several dog owners
that I know and even a group of dog trainers.
Thank you again.
Kay

==========================

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Howe" <***@bellsouth.net>
To: <***@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Update

Post by whatever
Have your vet call me if he's interested in behavior.
XXX/OOO. Jerry.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-15 16:37:44 UTC

Post by Tara O.
Sometimes with children, the *best* method of getting them to

remember that

Post by Tara O.
something is dangerous is to create a situation that they will

forever

Post by Tara O.
remember...like a hand-smack or a scarey story. I am a product of
generations worth of family who believed in spanking. I don't

advocate

Post by Tara O.
spanking but the simple truth is that it never killed me.

RIGHT!

IT MADE YOU A MENTAL CASE.

Post by Tara O.
Tara

HOWEDY Bizby38,

Post by Tara O.
Hi all,
I feel like my entire family is out of control,

No dHOWET. Any dysfunction effects everyWON.

Post by Tara O.
but to take just one thing at a time,

That'll confHOWEND you. Focusing on the symptoms
will keep you chasing phantasams like runnin up the
marshmallow staircase in a never ending recurring nightmare.

You need to step back and examine the whole, and
disregard the specifics of they symptoms that want
to command your 100% undivided attention to continue
it's own pathology, like a virus.

Post by Tara O.
I'd like to talk about my daughter.

The daughter isn't the problem.

Post by Tara O.
She's 8 years old, very loving, smart, has a great sense of

humor,

Post by Tara O.
is very imaginative, and she has an incredibly hard time trying

Post by Tara O.
control her emotions.

SHOWENDS normal.

Post by Tara O.
Take this morning for example: I was in the living room and her
daddy was getting her some milk. She wanted a straw, but there
were no more disposable ones in the drawer, so he gave her a
crazy straw. "I don't *want* a plastic straw! I want a regular

straw!"

The Puppy Wizard would ask "what's the difference?" and encourage
the child to talk abHOWET the issue and the benefits of WON Vs the
other, until the child forgot all abHOWET her original objection.

Post by Tara O.
So I called out to her that there were more straws in the

pantry.

The Puppy Wizard would have suggested that since the WON
straw is already in use, it would be a waste of a perfectly good
straw, to terminate it's use pryor to fulfillment of it's puporse,
thereby teaching VALUES, like the work in cleaning and the
wasted effort and expense of the new replacement.

Post by Tara O.
But she'd already gotten worked up,

Responding to the childs "needs" before they get upset or
feel neglected or ignored would preempt the impending tantrum.

Post by Tara O.
so she just kept stomping around and shouting.

That's a cry for attention. Surely there's ways to comfort or
distract the child to bring them HOWET of their anger /
frustration.

Post by Tara O.
Her daddy told her that if she didn't stop,

The child is not thinking in a productive way when she's upset.
Threatening or giving ultimatums will only make them feel worse
and inspire MOORE HOWEtrageHOWES behaviors.

Post by Tara O.
he'd pour the (chocolate) milk down the sink

That will make the child MOORE rebelliHOWES.

Post by Tara O.
She didn't stop,

Of curse not. She WANTS the direct attention, even at
the expense of her treat. Makin you and dad go APE
will appease her and REINFORCE her sense of pHOWER.

Post by Tara O.
so he did pour it out,

To teach what kind of lesson? That if you're not happy
with what you got, you can lose it all? That mommy and
daddy will punish you for showing displeasure frustration
fear or anger?

A child should never feel repressed abHOWET expressing
themselves, no matter HOWE frivilHOWES it seems to you.

Post by Tara O.
and she stomped off to her room.

After having what was rightly hers TAKEN AWAY as PUNISHMENT
for making unreasonable (to an adult's mind) demands and getting
frustrated when they're not met to her satisfaction?

Seems the adults have made a mHOWEntain HOWETA a molehill.

Post by Tara O.
I finally went up there about an hour later and found her

*still*

Post by Tara O.
steaming.

No dHOWET.

Post by Tara O.
I told her that I'd like to talk to her,

Perhaps had you talked to her long before the straw man incident,
she wouldn't have had that HOWEtburst?

Post by Tara O.
but she said she didn't want to talk,

Of curse not! Wasn't that clear when you readily responded
to her demand that she wanted a different straw? Perhaps
what she REALLY wanted was dad, not you, to service her
plea for attention. Or perhaps she was jealHOWES of you
and wanted to get you an dad fighting abHOWET her?

Post by Tara O.
and then started calling me names, saying I'm stupid and
that she wouldn't have had to yell if I'd gotten off my lazy
butt and found the straws for her and so forth.

SHOWENDED like you did respond in a timley manner to
her unreasonable request. That's HOWE COME the argument
is a straw man... the problem is not this situation. The straw was
just an EXXXCUSE for attention.

Post by Tara O.
I told her that I'd done nothing but try to help her from the

start,

Right. That's HOWE COME it seems to The Puppy Wizard that
the child wanted dad's TLC.

Post by Tara O.
and I couldn't believe she was talking to me that way, and I

left.

To let her stew someMOORE.

Post by Tara O.
I'm completely at my wit's end.

INDEEDY. Seems like you can't win in a situation like this.
That's on accHOWENT of the situation is not the problem.

Post by Tara O.
Today was unusual in a few aspects -- how quickly she went
from 0 to full tilt tantrum for one.

She was obviHOWESLY spoiling for a fight from the git go.
Feeding into it by taking away her treat was childish and
hurtful, further justifying the childs frustration and anger.

Post by Tara O.
And the way she was yelling at me and calling me names
when I'm not the one who she'd had the original problem with.

That's irrelevant. She's angry abHOWET sumpthin else.

Post by Tara O.
But other aspects are all too common -- throwing a tantrum
when she doesn't get exactly what she wants,

Because something or someWON is frustrating her.

Post by Tara O.
sassing and showing us disrespect,

Where does she learn THAT?

Post by Tara O.
failing to see that her actions are having negative

consequences,

You mean, that she doen't seem to CARE that she's likely
to get punished, and have her treat taken away from her?

Post by Tara O.
etc.

Well, that explains it all... don't it.

Giving negative consequences makes the child feel
like nobody LOVES them. A dilligent parent PROTECTS
their child from SUFFERING consequences that frustrate
and anger them.

Post by Tara O.
I'm at a loss as to what to do,

You've got to do every thing DIFFERENTLY than you've been doin.

Post by Tara O.
and as to what I/we have done wrong up to this point.

Punishment, scolding, withholding, ignoring, bannishment,
forcing control, responding to the child's negative attention
getting devices, are the most common REINFORCERS of
BAD BEHAVIOR.

Post by Tara O.
Even reading what I've written here makes me rather ashamed.

There's nuthin to be ASHAMED abHOWET. Kids do not come
with an owner's manual. Kids CHALLENGE authority to test their
limits and power. GIVE them the POWER and let them set their
own limits with your guidance and non demanding recommendations
and suggestions. Show them constant love and approval IN ADVANCE.
Engage them in conversations and give them direct positive
attention
before they feel neglected and attempt to command your undivided
negative attention.

Post by Tara O.
She behaves well in school,

Perhaps she's afraid of the teacher's authority. That's bad.
We should RESPECT authority because it is always consistent,
fair, appupriate, and clearly in HOWER best interests.

Post by Tara O.
but her behavior has gotten her in trouble with friend's

mothers,

She's trying to get attention. The Puppy Wizard believes that
was the motivator behind the straw incident.

Post by Tara O.
and there is at least one mother who won't let her daughter play
with mine anymore.

That satisfies the child's sense of devilish pHOWER.

Post by Tara O.
Please Help!!!!

The giant part of this problem is you're inadvertently
being drawn into fighting with her over insignificant
STUFF that could be avoided by preempting her
needs for your negative attention by rewarding and
praising her in advance. It's kinda like unconditional
love, with some planning behind it.

Post by Tara O.
Bizby
Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
come forward and actually believe in his training manual.

Post by Tara O.
And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
admit to buying and having success with his little black
box.

I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
would never believe the results, so you'll never know.

Post by Tara O.
Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
him! LOL!

I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.

Post by Tara O.
Terri

Mary Healey

2003-09-15 17:03:34 UTC

Post by Tara O.
A hand smack will startle the
child, especially if he/she isn't accustomed to such things.

The odds of startling the child *into* the danger instead of away gives
me pause.

Post by Tara O.
It'll make the
kid remember that smack and that getting near the stove is BAD.

--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

Gwen Watson

2003-09-15 17:04:17 UTC

Post by Tara O.
A hand smack will startle the
child, especially if he/she isn't accustomed to such things.

The odds of startling the child *into* the danger instead of away gives
me pause.

Post by Tara O.
It'll make the
kid remember that smack and that getting near the stove is BAD.

Will it? Or will the kid remember the smack and that getting near the
stove AROUND ADULTS is bad? Sorta like the dogs who think peeing in
front of humans is BAD, but peeing behind the sofa (or when the human is
absent) is okay?
--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

I totally agree. I wasn't one that smacked my kids at all. I just don't see
the need for that. And mostly they turned out pretty good.

Though my daughter and I have some differences to iron out. I figure
she is 20 now, maybe around 25 she will come around.

But I certainly have not seen kids that were smacked all the time that
ever learned much of anything other than to sneak around.

Gwen

Suja

2003-09-15 17:30:40 UTC

Post by Gwen Watson
But I certainly have not seen kids that were smacked all the time that
ever learned much of anything other than to sneak around.

HEY!

Suja (Perfect Angel now, but that took some work)

Gwen Watson

2003-09-15 17:27:43 UTC

Post by Suja

Post by Gwen Watson
But I certainly have not seen kids that were smacked all the time that
ever learned much of anything other than to sneak around.

HEY!
Suja (Perfect Angel now, but that took some work)

Whoops! I did it once again, over generalized. My one
BIL was smacked every other hour or so it sounds.
He has ADHD and went untreated because FIL
would not accept that he had this.

Of course smacking can work but when it isn't working
it is certainly time to investigate other means of discipline
one would think.

Gwen

shelly

2003-09-15 17:21:46 UTC

Post by Mary Healey
Will it? Or will the kid remember the smack and that getting
near the stove AROUND ADULTS is bad? Sorta like the dogs who
think peeing in front of humans is BAD, but peeing behind the
sofa (or when the human is absent) is okay?

i think it depends (haw! how's that for an answer?) when i
was 3-4yo i ran out into the street and scared the bejeezus
out of my mom. she gave me the spanking of a lifetime, not
because she'd thought it through and decided it'd be a good
way to impress upon me that going into the street was A Very
Bad Thing, but because she was acting purely on adrenaline.
i was way more upset with having scared her than with the
spanking. i realized i must've done something *really* bad.
i never ran out into the street again and, to this very day,
am extra careful about crossing streets <G>.

my mom had a similar, but less extreme, reaction to kids who
screamed and squealed while they were playing. the rule was
that if you sounded like you were dying, you'd damned well
better be or there'd be hell to pay. my mom has always been
pretty tolerant of obnoxiousness of all sorts, but scaring her
wasn't something you did more than once.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

Gwen Watson

2003-09-15 17:16:03 UTC

Omy mom had a similar, but less extreme, reaction to kids who
screamed and squealed while they were playing. the rule was
that if you sounded like you were dying, you'd damned well
better be or there'd be hell to pay. my mom has always been
pretty tolerant of obnoxiousness of all sorts, but scaring her
wasn't something you did more than once.
--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

Your mom and I really do sound like we would get along well.

One thing I can't tolerate is squealing, screaming kids. It drives
me completely bonkers.

Gwen

shelly

2003-09-15 17:44:06 UTC

Post by Gwen Watson
Your mom and I really do sound like we would get along well.

told ya' so!

Post by Gwen Watson
One thing I can't tolerate is squealing, screaming kids. It
drives me completely bonkers.

it drives her up the wall. i can understand why, though.
it's not fun to have the crap scared out of you by some kid
who's screaming bloody murder.

(BTW i meant to respond to another of your posts, but
accidentally deleted the entire group. damn!)

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

Gwen Watson

2003-09-15 17:51:05 UTC

Post by shelly

Post by Gwen Watson
Your mom and I really do sound like we would get along well.

told ya' so!

Yep and she is a Taurus one of my most favoritist people!:))

Post by shelly

Post by Gwen Watson
One thing I can't tolerate is squealing, screaming kids. It
drives me completely bonkers.

it drives her up the wall. i can understand why, though.
it's not fun to have the crap scared out of you by some kid
who's screaming bloody murder.

Yep but for me it isn't as much scaring me as it is like raking
a fingernail on a chalk board. It gets right under my skin. Though
sometimes it is scary.

Post by shelly
(BTW i meant to respond to another of your posts, but
accidentally deleted the entire group. damn!)
--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

It happens!

Gwen

Mary Healey

2003-09-15 18:37:40 UTC

Post by shelly

i think it depends (haw! how's that for an answer?)

That's the Answer to Everything. Pretty much. I guess it depends ...

Post by shelly
when i
was 3-4yo i ran out into the street and scared the bejeezus
out of my mom. she gave me the spanking of a lifetime, not
because she'd thought it through and decided it'd be a good
way to impress upon me that going into the street was A Very
Bad Thing, but because she was acting purely on adrenaline.

BTDT, but without the spanking part. I don't really remember being
spanked, not the "wait 'til your father gets home" sort of ritualized
punishment. The occasional butt-swat, sure. A suitable and sometimes
necessary attention-getter.

Scaring my folks most certainly has stuck in my memory, though. It just
isn't *right* for parents to be scard. Of anything. For any reason.

Post by shelly
i was way more upset with having scared her than with the
spanking. i realized i must've done something *really* bad.

Yep.

The worst punishment I can remember is something my mother said to me
after I was somewhat extravagantly buttheaded. She said, "You made your
father cry. A man who didn't even cry when his mother died, and you had
him in tears."

Post by shelly
i never ran out into the street again and, to this very day,
am extra careful about crossing streets <G>.

You won't find me crossing the "caution" line on a train platform, or
playing on railroad tracks. Ever. Some things become so ingrained that
they're practically phobias...

--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

shelly

2003-09-15 19:14:30 UTC

Post by Mary Healey
BTDT, but without the spanking part. I don't really remember
being spanked, not the "wait 'til your father gets home" sort
of ritualized punishment. The occasional butt-swat, sure.
A suitable and sometimes necessary attention-getter.

exactly. my mom rarely spanked, but when she did it was
either because we'd scared her silly or she couldn't otherwise
get our attention. if the latter, one swat was all she gave
us.

Post by Mary Healey
Scaring my folks most certainly has stuck in my memory,
though. It just isn't *right* for parents to be scard. Of
anything. For any reason.

it turns the world upside-down.

Post by Mary Healey
The worst punishment I can remember is something my mother
said to me after I was somewhat extravagantly buttheaded.
She said, "You made your father cry. A man who didn't even
cry when his mother died, and you had him in tears."

wow! that must've been devastating to hear, coming from your
own mother.

Post by Mary Healey
You won't find me crossing the "caution" line on a train
platform, or playing on railroad tracks. Ever. Some things
become so ingrained that they're practically phobias...

yep (and phobia is a good word for it). or walking out from
between parked cars or taking showers during thunderstorms.
and then there's that whole Tornado Terror thing, which i
think borders on Unkindly Visiting Your Irrational Fears on
Your Children, but that's another story.

--
shelly (perfectly foul wench) and elliott and harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette

sionnach

2003-09-15 17:21:22 UTC

Post by Tara O.
A hand smack will startle the
child, especially if he/she isn't accustomed to such things. It'll make the
kid remember that smack and that getting near the stove is BAD.

Maybe. Or it may simply make the child afraid of me. My biggest concern,
however, it that it could very well startle the child into actually turning
over the pot- which is why I would grab the child and remove him from
danger, not hit him.
There's also the factor that with some children, trying to teach
"getting near the stove is BAD" will create a forbidden-fruit situation, and
make the child MORE likely to try the same stunt another time. Which, again,
is why I don't want to teach "getting near the stove is BAD", rather; I want
to teach proper caution in getting near the stove & in handling hot water.
I'm not talking theoretically here, btw. My sister's kids could all
cook - with supervision- and were safe in the kitchen at a very early age,
because we operated on the principle of allowing them to learn how to handle
themselves correctly rather than forbidding things entirely. Since they
were allowed to do as much as they were able, and knew they'd be allowed to
do more when the time was appropriate, they didn't get into things behind
our backs.

Post by Tara O.
Just jumping in to remove the
child has taught the kid absolutely nothing.

Except that I didn't say that I would "just jump in", and do nothing
else. You need to re-read my post- the part of that was snipped out, where
I detailed what I would do to teach the child how to handle being near the
stove appropriately, and how I would help the child understand the danger of
hot water. If the child is too young to learn that, then the child is too
young to be punished for getting near the stove- it's MY fault for not
properly supervising.

Mary Healey

2003-09-15 16:17:23 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

Of course not. I'd scoop the kid up bodily. No smacking, no slapping,
no flicking. (Kids wear coveralls so adults have a 'handle' to pick 'em
up like a teapot.)

Wouldn't flick a puppy's nose, either. Too severe for the offense, too
likely to have it made into a "grab the finger" game, ineffective for
the purpose intended.

Post by Emily Carroll
It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and
reflect upon the fact that biting=no more play.

It's far more likely a chance for the human to calm down and get a
moment's peace.

Post by Emily Carroll
Flicking a puppy on the nose when it's biting should not create a
fear-aggressive dog. If it does, the dog's temperament was unstable to
begin with.

Emily, would you flick the nose of an adult dog? A mouthy adult Lab,
say? Or a grabby Dal? I wouldn't, which is part of the reason why I'd
never do it to a puppy -- just because puppies aren't as likely to react
in a retaliatory fashion is no reason to inflict more severe punishment
on them than on an adult dog.

Post by Emily Carroll
If you equate flicking on the nose with abuse you need a reality check.

As I said, I wouldn't do something to a young puppy that I wouldn't do
to a possibly defensive adult dog. I like my fingers attached to my
hands, and I deal with dogs who are supposed to go after anything that
swats 'em.

Duke must not be an average Lab, then. He's the closest thing to a
positive-only dog I own. Of course, he's also the most recent
acquisition, so his training has benefitted from the mistakes and
unintentional outcomes I went through with the other guys.

I find that people whose timing for reward-based training sucks don't
have the timing for corrections, either. A mis-timed cookie doesn't
wreak half the damage a mis-timed "correction" can.

From what was described, I think the OP has a normal, active puppy.
Because the OP was uncertain of how a normal puppy behaves (and because
I'm a huge fan of puppy classes), I think a Super Puppy or similar class
is strongly indicated.

--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-15 17:12:07 UTC

HOWEDY mary,

As a second degeneration dog abuser, you're
full of crap. You're a doubletalker. Your own
dog grHOWELS at you when you INTIMIDATE IT.

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

Of course not. I'd scoop the kid up bodily. No smacking, no

slapping,

Post by Mary Healey
no flicking. (Kids wear coveralls so adults have a 'handle' to pick 'em
up like a teapot.)
Wouldn't flick a puppy's nose, either. Too severe for the

offense, too

Post by Mary Healey
likely to have it made into a "grab the finger" game,

ineffective for

Post by Mary Healey
the purpose intended.

Post by Emily Carroll
It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm

down and

Post by Emily Carroll
reflect upon the fact that biting=no more play.

It's far more likely a chance for the human to calm down and get a
moment's peace.

Post by Emily Carroll
Flicking a puppy on the nose when it's biting should not

create a

Post by Emily Carroll
fear-aggressive dog. If it does, the dog's temperament was

unstable to

Post by Emily Carroll
begin with.

punishment

Post by Mary Healey
on them than on an adult dog.

Post by Emily Carroll
If you equate flicking on the nose with abuse you need a

reality check.

Post by Mary Healey
As I said, I wouldn't do something to a young puppy that I

wouldn't do

Post by Mary Healey
to a possibly defensive adult dog. I like my fingers attached

to my

Post by Mary Healey
hands, and I deal with dogs who are supposed to go after

anything that

Post by Mary Healey
swats 'em.

Post by Emily Carroll
You have a herding breed. I don't, and neither does the OP.

You don't

Post by Emily Carroll
teach the average Lab much through positive-only methods

unless you're

Post by Emily Carroll
*very* talented at timing the reward right. The whole WORLD

is just as good

Post by Emily Carroll
as you are.

Duke must not be an average Lab, then. He's the closest thing

to a

Post by Mary Healey
positive-only dog I own. Of course, he's also the most recent
acquisition, so his training has benefitted from the mistakes

and

Post by Mary Healey
unintentional outcomes I went through with the other guys.
I find that people whose timing for reward-based training sucks don't
have the timing for corrections, either. A mis-timed cookie

doesn't

Post by Mary Healey
wreak half the damage a mis-timed "correction" can.
From what was described, I think the OP has a normal, active

puppy.

Post by Mary Healey
Because the OP was uncertain of how a normal puppy behaves (and because
I'm a huge fan of puppy classes), I think a Super Puppy or

similar class

Post by Mary Healey
is strongly indicated.
--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah

(1992-2001),

Post by Mary Healey
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

Nessa

2003-09-15 20:37:50 UTC

Post by Mary Healey
(Kids wear coveralls so adults have a 'handle' to pick 'em
up like a teapot.)

and JRT's too!! (ask Sarah)

but yeah I can't tell you how many times I had to pick up my older very ADHD
kid that way.

the younger one NO WAY he was huge at 5 months old he weighed 25 pounds and
NO he was not on food or formula at the time.

--
Nessa
http://www.nessa.info

No trumpets sound when the important decisions of our life are made. Destiny
is made known silently. -- Agnes DeMille

Mary Healey

2003-09-15 20:46:17 UTC

Post by Mary Healey
(Kids wear coveralls so adults have a 'handle' to pick 'em
up like a teapot.)

and JRT's too!! (ask Sarah)

Of course. JRTs don't have a natural handle (tail) like, say,
Dachshunds and Labs do.

Post by Nessa
but yeah I can't tell you how many times I had to pick up my older very ADHD
kid that way.

Almost everyone I know puts their kids into little OshKoshes as soon as
they start to toddle. Some of them aren't allowed unbibbed pants until
they're old enough to vote...

Post by Nessa
the younger one NO WAY he was huge at 5 months old he weighed 25 pounds and
NO he was not on food or formula at the time.

<g> Air-fern?

--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

Mary Healey

2003-09-15 21:57:55 UTC

Post by Nessa
and JRT's too!! (ask Sarah)

Of course. JRTs don't have a natural handle (tail) like, say,
Dachshunds and Labs do.

Heh. Actually, they're SUPPOSED to have enough tail to be a handle- in
fact, that's pretty much what the standard says- but Rocsi only has a nub.

Most of the ones I've seen have only enough tail for a child-sized handle.

Tangentially, it's one of the many reasons ACDs should keep their
sturdy, hock-length tails. Not so much the "dragging out of burrows"
type handle as a third opportunity to catch the bugger if you miss the
two back legs while lunging for the animated pinball's collar. Aim for
the head, hope to snag a back paw or fistful of tail...

And now I'm getting a mental picture of Rocsi in OshKoshes, and it's funny
as heck; I may have to buy her a pair of baby ones.

I think some critters should be B'goshed at birth, don't you?

--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

Nessa

2003-09-16 02:02:38 UTC

Post by Nessa
the younger one NO WAY he was huge at 5 months old he weighed 25 pounds and
NO he was not on food or formula at the time.

<g> Air-fern?

naw he ate at mom's. nothing solid till nearly 8 months. now he's a
strapping 6'1" 17 yr old.

--
Nessa
I wanna talk about ME!!
http://www.nessa.info

dejablues

2003-09-16 03:49:16 UTC

When kids are ready to potty train , OshKoshes are *very* inconvenient... to
hard for kids to undo themselves, and too hard for parents also (I have to
go = I have to go NOW) Once a kid can dress and undress himself, overalls go
out the window! After preschool, noone wears them. They are deemed uncool.

Post by Mary Healey
(Kids wear coveralls so adults have a 'handle' to pick 'em
up like a teapot.)

and JRT's too!! (ask Sarah)

Of course. JRTs don't have a natural handle (tail) like, say,
Dachshunds and Labs do.

Post by Nessa
but yeah I can't tell you how many times I had to pick up my older very ADHD
kid that way.

Almost everyone I know puts their kids into little OshKoshes as soon as
they start to toddle. Some of them aren't allowed unbibbed pants until
they're old enough to vote...

Post by Nessa
the younger one NO WAY he was huge at 5 months old he weighed 25 pounds and
NO he was not on food or formula at the time.

<g> Air-fern?
--
Mary H. and the Ames National Zoo: Regis, Sam-I-Am, Noah (1992-2001),
Ranger, Duke,
felines, and finches

Rocky

2003-09-16 03:55:55 UTC

And now I'm getting a mental picture of Rocsi in OshKoshes,
and it's funny as heck; I may have to buy her a pair of
baby ones.

Uh oh. Sarah's anthropomorphising, and the image scares me.
I'll be having nightmares of a JRT crossed with Dennis the
Menace.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

Kaabooo

2003-09-16 05:37:43 UTC

Post by Mary Healey
From what was described, I think the OP has a normal, active puppy.
Because the OP was uncertain of how a normal puppy behaves (and because
I'm a huge fan of puppy classes), I think a Super Puppy or similar class
is strongly indicated.

Ahh Mary .. thanks. I was beginning to think I was the only one who was
against the nose-flicking...

Kate

Kaabooo

2003-09-16 05:54:30 UTC

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

No. I'd pull the child away from the water. And it's not comparable anyway.

Post by Emily Carroll
So how long does the play stop? The 1/2 second it takes a dog to learn?
Doesn't work like that.

Actually... a loud "ouch" and a few seconds of turning away is more than
enough for a young pup with short attention span.

Post by Emily Carroll
If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

BS

~snip~

Post by Emily Carroll
Like what? What changes the fact that his method works? Dogs think
differently now than they did 40 years ago?

Chit we had cars that ran fairly well 40 years ago too. But they're better
now.
Dogs don't think differently, but new people have done new research and
found out that we have traditionally thought waaay too little of our dogs
and that they are a lot more complex than Kohler thought.

~anip~

Post by Emily Carroll
Flicking a puppy on the nose when it's biting should not create a
fear-aggressive dog. If it does, the dog's temperament was unstable to
begin with.

So not true. If the puppy associates your hands with pain, you're in deep
chit especially when the dog gets older.

~snip~

Post by Emily Carroll
So be it. Doesn't mean that I'm cruel or that I abuse my dogs or that it's
wrong. I think it's inappropriate for children to be allowed to run rampant
in a china store--but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of parents out
there who obviously don't think it's a problem.

Uhhmmm... this , again , isn't really comparable, is it? I don't think I'd
ever take my dog to a china store...

~snip~

Post by Emily Carroll
If you equate flicking on the nose with abuse you need a reality check.

I didn't use the word abuse - you did I do equate flicking on the nose with
unnecessary inflicting of pain and unnecessary force.

Post by Emily Carroll
Yes--exactly--but it's still fun to be allowed to chew on the couch or chase
the cat. No punishment has happened until the dog is no longer having fun.

He stops having fun the moment you turn around. After that, continuing the
punishment is just too late.

~snip~~

Actually - I have a mutt. A good ole Heinz 57.

Post by Emily Carroll
Yes, I would. I'd rather have a quick, effective recall because the dog's

been taught about consequences than have a dog that thinks it's OK to play
in the street. (See the "Whew" thread).

I'd rather have a dog who stayed in the yard because he knows his place. I
had an unfenced yard for a while - and my dog NEVER left the property. Of
couse that didn't last long - we fenced in the back yard because we don't
want anyone to come IN either.

And I have a quick, effective recall because my dog knows that when I call
she'll get to spend time with me. She'll get to hear a "good girl" maybe
she'll even get a belly rub or a treat. And it is EXTREMELY effective.

Post by Emily Carroll
I'd rather have a dog that sits
nicely for petting from day one than knocks a little kid over and gets me
sued.

I don't like strangers handling my dog when I'm not around anyway. Not
because I' afraid she's gonna hurt them but because I'm afraid they're gonna
hurt her.
And if you get a dog who's afraid of hands because he's used to yu ou
flicking and smacking him, well... you're not gonna have that dog you want.

Post by Emily Carroll
But I have a breed that will happily do both in complete oblivion to
me if not taught otherwise. You don't.

You don't know what kind of dog I have.

~snip~

Post by Emily Carroll
If it's true for an adult, it's true for a puppy.

That is SO not true. You would obviously spank or smack a child - and the
child-thing is your comparison, not mine. Would you spank or smack an adult?
Didn't think so.

Kate

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-16 18:19:00 UTC

HOWEDY ~emily,

You're a DOG ABUSER. For you to say that HURTING and
INTIMIDATING dogs "Doesn't mean that I'm cruel or that I
abuse my dogs or that it's wrong," is INSANE, like this:

I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?

"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.

No different tune," ~Emily

Post by Kaabooo
OK - so let's compare it to a 3 year old or even a 4 or 5 year

old. It'

Post by Emily Carroll
snot

Post by Kaabooo
necessary, nor beneficial to physically punish them either,

IMO.

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling pot
of water on itself?

Post by Emily Carroll
It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and

reflect

Post by Emily Carroll
upon the fact that biting=no more play.

A puppy doesn't lie there and reflect. As soon as the play is over he'll
have realized what happened. 30 seconds later he has no clue

and he's

Post by Kaabooo
definitely not lying there "reflecting".

So how long does the play stop? The 1/2 second it takes a dog

to learn?

Post by Emily Carroll
Doesn't work like that.

Post by Emily Carroll
If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you

are trying to

Post by Emily Carroll
stop.

No, because you're not part of it anymore.

But the fact that you're in the same room means that you are.

Post by Kaabooo
~~snip~~

Post by Emily Carroll
If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create

best selling

Post by Emily Carroll
books.

Kohler wrote his books more than 40 years ago. Things have

happened since

Post by Kaabooo
then.

Like what? What changes the fact that his method works? Dogs

think

Post by Emily Carroll
differently now than they did 40 years ago?

Post by Kaabooo
It sure as heck is if you want your dog to obey you out of

fear rather

Post by Emily Carroll
than

Post by Kaabooo
devotion and respect. Or if your timing's bad and you create a
fear-agressive dog.

Flicking a puppy on the nose when it's biting should not create a
fear-aggressive dog. If it does, the dog's temperament was

unstable to

Post by Emily Carroll
begin with.

Post by Kaabooo
Agree, again, but we disagree what is appropriate punishment .

To me

Post by Emily Carroll
turning

Post by Kaabooo
away, a firm "no" or "ah ah" and stop the fun activity is

more than

Post by Emily Carroll
enough.
So be it. Doesn't mean that I'm cruel or that I abuse my dogs

or that it's

Post by Emily Carroll
wrong. I think it's inappropriate for children to be allowed to run rampant
in a china store--but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of

parents out

Post by Emily Carroll
there who obviously don't think it's a problem.

Post by Emily Carroll
No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy.

You did tell him to flick it's nose... and shove it in a

crate.

Post by Emily Carroll
If you equate flicking on the nose with abuse you need a reality check.

Post by Kaabooo
But here you make it clear that it has to be a lengthy

time-out. A yound

Post by Emily Carroll
pup

Post by Kaabooo
doesn't need that.
When the fun stops the punishment is set.

Yes--exactly--but it's still fun to be allowed to chew on the

couch or chase

Post by Emily Carroll
the cat. No punishment has happened until the dog is no longer having fun.
The fun must stop completely and immediately for it to

work--leaving the

Post by Emily Carroll
puppy loose to continue to play on it's own does not equal a bad thing.
Maybe you have dogs who think that way, but most puppies are

still happy

Post by Emily Carroll
playing by themselves.

And I have dogs that would walk all over you. They wouldn't do anything
extreme--but nothing would be accomplished and they wouldn't be fun dogs to
have around.

Post by Kaabooo
Because a dog with the relationship I wish to form and that I have wit my
current dog ensures that's she's eager to please me and my

recognition is

Post by Kaabooo
her reward. Plus she gets used to working harder and

performing more

Post by Kaabooo
difficult tasks before expecting a reward. It becomes a habit.

You have a herding breed. I don't, and neither does the OP.

You don't

Post by Emily Carroll
teach the average Lab much through positive-only methods unless you're
*very* talented at timing the reward right. The whole WORLD is just as good
as you are.

Post by Kaabooo
So you'd rather have a quick fix than anything else... ok

with me.

Post by Emily Carroll
Yes, I would. I'd rather have a quick, effective recall because the dog's
been taught about consequences than have a dog that thinks it's OK to play
in the street. (See the "Whew" thread). I'd rather have a dog that sits
nicely for petting from day one than knocks a little kid over

and gets me

Post by Emily Carroll
sued. But I have a breed that will happily do both in complete oblivion to
me if not taught otherwise. You don't.

Post by Kaabooo
That's true enough, but not with a 9 week old puppy!

If it's true for an adult, it's true for a puppy.
~Emily
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.510 / Virus Database: 307 - Release Date: 8/14/2003

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 14:45:00 UTC

HOWEDY kaabooo,

This discussion is clearly a case of INSANITY.

Post by Emily Carroll
A 9 week old puppy can walk.

A three week old puppy can learn every thing IT needs to.

Post by Emily Carroll
A 9 week old baby cannot.

Let's stick to dogs in this forum.

<snip>

Post by Emily Carroll
They are not the same-

RIGHT.

-and comparing them is disadvantageous to both.

NO, that's incorrect. In some circles DOG BEHAVIOR
STUDIES are still used for human models of psychology.

OK - so let's compare it to a 3 year old or even a 4 or 5 year

old. It' snot

necessary, nor beneficial to physically punish them either, IMO.

CORRECT.

HOWER DOG LOVERS only appreciate HURTING
INTIMIDATING AVOIDING and BRIBING dogs and
children.

Post by Emily Carroll
It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy
to calm down and reflect upon the fact that biting=
no more play.

That'll teach the puppy to do the behavior to command
100% of your undivided attention so you can lock IT in
a box.

A puppy doesn't lie there and reflect.

Right. They get FRUSTRATED and ANGRY.

As soon as the play is over he'll have realized what
happened. 30 seconds later he has no clue and he's
definitely not lying there "reflecting".

Unless he's STEWING over being punished.

Post by Emily Carroll
If you don't confine the puppy, you will give the puppy
a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.

That's idiocy. The objective is not to STOP a behavior,
but to EXTINGUISH THE THOUGHT of the behavior.

No, because you're not part of it anymore.

There's NO DISCUSSION to be had here. You're
chasing phantasams. There's NO TRUTH to the
preposterHOWES ideas you're throwin abHOWET.

~~ snip snip ~~

Post by Emily Carroll
And I have dogs that have been treated with less than
100% positive methods

IOW, ~emily HURTS and INTIMIDATES her dogs.

Post by Emily Carroll
that I have the same relationship with.

Sez a vivisectionist, a liar, and a dog abuser.

Post by Emily Carroll
It's not a result of a particular method of training,

~emily is a MENTAL CASE.

Post by Emily Carroll
but being able to time the punishment with the undesired
behavior, and the reward with the desired behavior.

IOW, the slap and cookie.

Post by Emily Carroll
Regardless of which you choose to focus on.

You're talkin to a DOG ABUSER, MENTAL CASE and LIAR, kaabooo.

You are right.

INDEEDY. It's all in The Puppy Wizard's Archives.

But I think we just disagree what is appropriate "punishment".

RIGHT. That's the END of the discussion. There ain't no
appupriate PUNISHMENT for a DUMB ANIMAL.

And it's dangerous to tell a first time puppy owner to try
to teach physical punishment.

You think a MOORE experience DOG ABUSER would
have better LUCK using punishment???

An unexperienced dog owner is likely to time "punishment" wrong
and it will work against all purposes.

That's the PROBLEM, kaabooo. There AIN'T no effective
way to PUNISH a child or dog.

~~snip~~

Post by Emily Carroll
If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't
create best selling books.

BWEAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Kohler wrote his books more than 40 years ago.

koehler was BANNED in Arizona as ABUSE.

Things have happened since then.

Yeah... we've learned that the koehler method KILLS
the best dogs we have, the top10%, the WONS who
won't knuckle under to fear force pain and intimidation.

Ask Robert Crim.

Post by Emily Carroll
It IS effective. Very effective.

IT GETS DOGS and PEOPLE HURT and DEAD.

It sure as heck is if you want your dog to obey you out
of fear rather than devotion and respect.

HOWER DOG LOVERS HURT and INTIMIDATE DOGS
to compensate for their fragile defective ego's, weak fearful
minds, and inferiority complexes.

Or if your timing's bad

You mean, the PRECISE TIMING necessary to HURT a
dog EFFECTIVELY???

and you create a fear-agressive dog.

Yeah... so they KILL THEM.

Post by Emily Carroll
But only if the rewards and punishments
are applied at the proper times.

Dog lovers like ~emily will hurt and kill their best dogs:

"I was nervous about getting one of her puppies--honestly,
if he'd turned out like her, I would've been tempted to place
him rather than keep him."

Agree, again,

YOU SEE IT IN BLANKMAN AND WHITE!!!

but we disagree what is appropriate punishment .

That's on accHOWENT of there AIN'T no appupriate punishment.

To me turning away, a firm "no" or "ah ah"

THAT'S INSANE!!!

That'll focus the dog on HOWE to command 100%
of your undivided attention...

and stop the fun activity is more than enough.

THAT DOESN'T WORK!!!

Post by Emily Carroll
No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat his puppy.

~emily is a liar and a dog abuser and a MENTAL CASE.

You did tell him to flick it's nose... and shove it in a crate.

Oh. That's not BEATIN the dog.

Post by Emily Carroll
You can reward a puppy a million times a day for not biting,

NO. You CANNOT "REWARD" a behavior UNLESS
IT'S CAUGHT IN THE ACT!!!

We ain't goin through this BULLSHIT noMOORE.

There AIN'T no effective, appupriate way to HURT
INTIMIDATE BRIBE or IGNORE a dog to TEACH
TRUST GENTLENESS LOVE and RESPECT.

Post by Emily Carroll
but it won't catch on until it finds out that biting=bad
stuff happens,

MHOWETHING is a BONDING activity.

HURTING a dog for BONDING ATTEMPTS makes them
VICIHOWES FEARFUL and UNTRUSTING.

Post by Emily Carroll
whether that be being ignored,

IGNORING a dog will make it HATE YOU.

=OK IMO

You're a halfwit, kaaboo.

Post by Emily Carroll
stuck in his crate,

BWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

not OK IMO

HOWER EXXXPERTS GOT NO OTHER METHOD.

Post by Emily Carroll
flicked,

You mean, HURT and INTIMIDATED.

Not OK

Post by Emily Carroll
or tossed across the room.

~emily only wants to force control.

Definitely WRONG.

HOWER DOG ABUSERS DO NOT UNDERSTAND RIGHT
FROM WRONG.

That's the DEFINITION of MENTAL CASE.

THAT'S HOWE COME they're "MENTAL CASES."

Post by Emily Carroll
I can't put him in a time-out without using his crate--the

sheer fact

Post by Emily Carroll
that he's alive is enough reward for ANY behavior in his

little mind.

Post by Emily Carroll
Besides, the cat may come along and he may be rewarded by

chasing her. Or

Post by Emily Carroll
he may come across a bit of food that one of the other pets

dropped on the

Post by Emily Carroll
floor. His crate is a place for him to reflect upon the fact that it's a
pretty boring place to be when you aren't asleep (or being

fed).

But here you make it clear that it has to be a lengthy time-out.

~emily is a koehler trainer. koehler fans HURT and KILL their
best dogs because they only know FEAR FORCE PAIN
INTIMIDATION and DEATH. Ask ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN.

A yound pup doesn't need that.

NoWON needs this kinda CRAP.

When the fun stops the punishment is set.

That's IDIOCY.

He's not gonna go to his room and "think about what he's done"
or anything!

That's correct. The crate is only gonna make the behavior worse.

~~snip~~

Post by Emily Carroll
Yes, but how would you deal with a dog that isn't subordinate?

BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

THAT'S INSANITY TALKIN!!!

Post by Emily Carroll
How would you deal with a dog that consistantly looked
for the opportunity to one-up you?

BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

~emily is a DOG ABUSER EXXXTRODINAIRE, like
the rest of HOWER DOG LOVERS. They're predominantely
koehler trainers. koehler trainers FEAR DOGS. That's HOWE
COME THEY HURT and KILL THEM.

Post by Emily Carroll
The dogs I choose to have in my life have a bit of dominant

behavior.

~emily LIKES to HURT dogs. That's HOWE COME HOWER DOG
LOVERS POST HERE!!!

Post by Emily Carroll
I don't WANT a dog that refuses to listen because he knows

better

Post by Emily Carroll
than I do, but I want a dog that is confident in himself.

~emily is a MENTAL CASE. There's NO REASONABLE DISCUSSION
with A CERTIFIED, ACTIVE, MENTAL PATIENT!!!

By rewarding desired behavior

You cannot REWARD a dog for NOT DOIN STUFF
CAUSE THE DOG AIN'T THINKING OF WHAT YOU'RE
"REWARDING" him for!!!

and "punishing " (your word, not mine) by stopping a
fun activity or a firm voice.

BY INTIMIDATING IT.

Only in extreme cases would I use physical force,

IOW, YOU ARE likeWIZE, A DOG ABUSER, kaabooo.

and DEFINITELY not with a 9 week old puppy.

A dog is a dog, kaabooo, just as a DOG ABUSER is a DOG ABUSER.
The AGE of the DOG YOU ABUSE has NUTHIN to do with this.

YOU ARE A DOG ABUSER, just like ~emily. There's NO shades
of grey to ABUSE. You IS or you ISN'T. YOU IS.

That's the bottom line here abHOWETS.

WELCOME to The Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method School Of HARD KNOCKS.

You're NO DIFFERENT than ~emily. You're TRYING to not
continue to be an abuser, but you cannot. You will always
resort to fear force intimidation pain and death, when you
run HOWETA INTELLECT and are left facing your fears.

Post by Emily Carroll
Furthermore, how do you proof a dog for competition
using no-force methods?

BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!

THAT'S INSANE!!!

Same thing. And we train both agility and herding.

That so? You train agility and herding?

Funny thing is she knows more about herding than I do...

BVWEWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! GOODBYE, kaaboo!

Post by Emily Carroll
You can teach the behaviors, but how do you ensure that
the dog will respond without rewards?

YOU MEAN BRIBES???

BEWWAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!

Because a dog with the relationship I wish to form and that I

have wit my

current dog ensures that's she's eager to please me and my

recognition is

her reward. Plus she gets used to working harder and performing more
difficult tasks before expecting a reward. It becomes a habit.

FORGET ABHOWET IT!

Post by Emily Carroll
I'd rather plop down my $100 and have my CD in 4 months

INSTEAD OF IN WON MONTH USING NON FORCE METHODS.

Post by Emily Carroll
with a dog that knows that there is no other option than spend three years
getting the dog proofed through positive methods.

THAT'S THE BIG LIE koehler fans want you to believe.

So you'd rather have a quick fix than anything else... ok with me.

That's the typical response of a KNOW NUTHIN who'll HURT
a dog as a LAST RESORT. There's NO DIFFERENCE between
~emily and kaabooo, EXXXCEPT WHEN and HOWE MUCH they'll
HURT and INTIMIDATE a dog and WHEN TO KILL IT, TO BE FAIR.

Post by Emily Carroll
I'm not saying that positive methods are bad.

~emily doesn't know HOWE to train a dog withHOWET HURTING IT.

Post by Emily Carroll
I use clicker training.

That's a LIE.

Post by Emily Carroll
I don't "punish" but correct bad behavior.

That's a LIE.

Post by Emily Carroll
Punishment, to me, is something that extends
beyond the capabilities of a dog's learning process.

The TRUTH is beyond the capabilities of learning for a MENTAL
CASE.

Post by Emily Carroll
But there are places where a well-timed correction

You mean PAIN FEAR and FORCE.

Post by Emily Carroll
can get the point across

Yeah. It makes dogs and children UNTRUSTING and dangerHOWES.

Post by Emily Carroll
much more efficiently than trying to reward the good
behavior time after time.

Oh. You CANNOT REWARD BEHAVIOR for NOT happening.

That's true enough,

You're HOWETA BUSINESS here abHOWETS. You got
NUTHIN to contribute, kaabooo.

but not with a 9 week old puppy!

Entertaining a discussion with a DOG ABUSER and MENTAL CASE
is INSANE, kaabooo. That's HOWE COME you and your ilk cannot
post here noMOORE.

Post by Emily Carroll
~Emily

~emily HURTS and KILLS dogs.

Kate

And YOU ENABLE HER!

That too, is MENTAL ILLNESS.

Here's two Pauls:

Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: ***@cfl.rr.com
To: ***@aol.com

Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.

My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.

When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.

I will write to Amanda about the video.

I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.

Thanks again
Paul

Post by Emily Carroll
=============================

From: Paul B (***@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST

It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
without too much difficulty.

My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around the bowls :-)

I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction
anytime the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed
with immediate praise. It worked a treat.

The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is
food left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we go
out and leave the dogs with access inside through a dog door.

Paul

--
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.

See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html

Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!

====================

--- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bousie
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2003 8:00 AM
Subject: Geday.

Hey J,

I see nothings changed on the NG. Still the same
old crappy advice and misunderstanding of the
only advice worth reading.

The problem with your method J is that I can't
answer the questions on the NG no more, people
are after a quick fix, they don't want to understand
that dog training requires a disiplined method, I'm
now really understanding that they are all result
orientated, they want the dog to sit, to down, to
stay, to come, to stop it's "bad" behaviours, they
want to stamp out each anxiety one at a time not
realising they create a new one as they deal with the last.

I feel sorry for them, they don't understand, they
don't even realise the errors of thier ways and
they arn't self thinkers, they follow the majority,
after all if everyone says thats the way then it
must be. I've finally realised people don't want
to learn to train dogs they want a trained dog,
they want a little puppet that sits and stays and
downs and does all the nice doggy stuff or so
they think, then when the dog acts like a dog
they come squealing to the NG asking how to
stop the dog being a dog.

I have a nice little visulisation of a dogs mind
that I think demonstrates the way we approach
dog training. Imagine lots of little circles all in a
cluster, each one representing a dog anxiety or
behaviour ( desied or not), each circle represents
something about the dog, all of them create what
a dog is.

The traditional way to train a dog is to stamp out
the "bad" circles, try to eliminate as many as you
can, problem is each one you stamp out another
takes it's place (anxiety circles can't be destroyed
they just change), obviously it's a futile exercise,
but thats the traditional way.

Now imagine a big circle that completely surrounds
all the small circles, this big circle is the whole dog,
that's what we get hold of with all the little circles
inside, we don't see the little circles we see the BIG
circle the macro as you put it and use that to train.

I laugh now when I see posts critisising you, they
are critising something they don't even understand
or even have the capacity to understand.

See ya,

Paul

=====================

Post by Emily Carroll
I have been reading these forums for a few weeks
now, and am getting really confused!!
but is there actually anyone who has used the
methods in this manual with any success ?

100% TOTAL NON PHYSICAL CONTROL, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, BY EVERY FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Student.

It's the GENTLEST, FASTEST, MOST EFFECTIVE,
NON FORCE, NON CONFRONTATIONAL, NON BRIBE,
SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL technique in the
Whole Wild World, BAR NONE.

Post by Emily Carroll
I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon
and really would like to know the best and most
effective way of training without using food treats
or violence (i do agree with what the guy says
about food treats and violence)
Thanks for any intelligent replies

===============================

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.
Subject: Jerry Howe
Hi,
Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
what you have to say of his training methods.

If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
already have a good idea about what I think.
His methods are the best I have come across. They
aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so if
you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother. If
you go his way then you have to forget all the other
gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
the results.
You can't combine his methods with other training
methods, not until you understand what you are
trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
then just a snip of what they suggest which works
in parallel with the Wits End concept.
His methods make you as the trainer completely
responsible for your actions, his methods make
you think and work out your own solutions for
any given situation, the default (the recall) is
always there to get things under control again.
His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
work together which is surely the best way to be.
His methods don't use force or intimidation but
they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
can achieve almost nothing.
If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
request you call him / her to you, since the recall
is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
"equal" position.
His methods are very good, his understanding of
dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.
Paul Bousie

==============================

Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
all, people who find the manual useful are those that
don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
advice in his manual are people who have already
tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
the poor results.
The more I think about the methods he suggests the
more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
our values and I don't believe they are capable of
understanding them either, so to train them we use
methods they understand. That means abstract
training, doing sometimes what appears to
almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
If you are purely result orientated then you will not
find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
and love to work WITH them then his manual is
your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
it, it's very obvious why.
When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
pursue that behaviour.
Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
Paul

=======================

Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?

Paul B (***@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Good dogs!!! bad dogs.??
Date: 2000/10/21

Something occurred this morning that made me think how
we treat our dogs and what expectations we have of them.

Because it was a Saturday we slept in and the dogs
eventually jumped up on the bed on my wife's side. After
a brief greeting she very abruptly demanded they get down,
"OFF THE BED" she insisted, Sam looked at her perplexed,
so she repeated the "order", so Sam tried to lick her face,
"GET OFF" she said abruptly.

Sam got down but was unsure what he had done wrong. After
a bit they both came over and jumped up on my side, I patted
them etc and eventually asked them to get down, "off the bed,
good dogs" and they hopped off immediately with no prob's.

Eileen asked me why they obey me and not her so easily.
I told her they got down for me because I asked them to,
they know the command "off the bed" or "off anything" so
there is no need to demand it of them, ask them and they
will comply, demand it and they get confused because
they think you are annoyed with them but they don't know
why so they try to "make amends" which is why Sam licked her.

I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all, all
dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they are
good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.

Telling Sam he's a good dog after he sit's apart from been too
late is also a gamble because if he doesn't sit then there's
no positive interaction.

Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog"
sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll find your
dog thinking then responding everytime.

Paul

=======================

From: Paul B (***@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Get off the bed... please?
Date: 2001-07-03 03:05:59 PST

A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to
every aspect of the relationship with your dog.

Paul.

========================

Subject: Re: Dog will not listen to anyone but me!
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:33:36 -0500
Message-ID: ***@corp.supernews.com

Okay, I gotta speak up here... We've been using Jerry's
methods with our dog. We had the same problem as the
original poster has with Buzz. One day working with the
family pack exercise and practicing the recall command
with the family and she'll now go out with hubby and
daughter instead of needing me to reassure her or even
refusing to go with anyone but me.

I really urge you, regardless of the negative things you
might hear about Jerry & Wits' End here, to try the method
and *judge the results for yourself*.

Let's see what other areas she's improved in... always
comes when called, not chewing stuff even if we leave
it laying around, "re"housebroken after long shelter stay,
walks perfectly on leash, doesn't try to steal food from
our plates or beg... probably a few more things I'm
forgetting to mention. *(Yeah, the kats lay off the koi
and don't wander. jh).

That's in about a week's time.

Her overall demeanor has changed. When we brought
her home she was very untrusting and ultra-submissive
(except with her area/toys where she was possessive and
nippy).

She had been abused and beaten by previous owners,
then she was in a shelter for months. They (most of them)
wanted to give up and kill her Now she's gained confidence
and trust with us. Last night was another big breakthrough
(in my eyes). She barked! Big deal, she barked just once
when she heard the front door. Great!

Anyway, you'll be told lots of nasty stuff about Jerry or that
the Wits' End manual is culled from other sources. In my
opinion, even if it is, it takes only the good stuff and leaves
out the bad. Works for me.

(And I suppose I gotta say this... I don't know Jerry personally.
I've emailed him and instant messaged him. I have not bought a
"Doggy Do Right". He's offered help for free.)

Ms. Mick Owen Crneckiy
http://www.crneckiy.com & http://tarot.crneckiy.com
E-mail & MSN Messenger: ***@crneckiy.com
AIM & Yahoo!: MickCrneckiy ~ ICQ: 72461227

======================

"Charlie Wilkes" <***@easynews.com wrote
in message news: ***@4ax.com...

I read up on rotties, pitbulls, etc., and quite a
bit of the literature suggested I needed to assert
my dominance and "make the dog earn everything it
gets."

I tried this once or twice, just by taking a stern
tone of voice, and the results were terrible.
The pup got scared and just wanted to stay away from
me.

That's why I support Jerry Howe and his FREE
Wits' End Dog Training manual -- that and the fact
that Jerry is an all-around great guy.

The core takeaway I got from Jerry's manual is this:
make yourself the center of your puppy's world -
- his personal Lord Jesus. Never give him a reason
to fear you or think you're angry. Love the heck
out of him, and you'll end up with a great dog.

This has truly worked with my puppy. She'll do
anything I want her to, if she understands, because
she trusts me 100 percent, and nothing is more
important in her world than her relationship
with me. http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy
Charlie

=========================

And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and actually
admit to buying and having success with his little black
box.

I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take
it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You
would never believe the results, so you'll never know.

Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming to
him! LOL!

I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.

Terri

nichael

2003-09-13 14:49:52 UTC

so toxic of a toxic mommy, so young....

Post by Emily Carroll
A 9 week old puppy is in a similar stage to a 3 year old child, not a 9

week

Post by Emily Carroll
old child. And yes, it is sometimes appropriate to physically punish a

Post by Emily Carroll
year old child.

No it is not, IMO. And it is definitely never necessary.

Post by Emily Carroll
Yes--that's how it's being used. As a time-out place. The puppy gets

put

Post by Emily Carroll
in it's crate and ignored for a minute or two. Otherwise, you are

giving

Post by Emily Carroll
the puppy an opportunity to continue it's behavior.

A time-out as PUNISHMENT should never be done in a crate if you want your
dog to feel that it's a safe place.
The pup can be ignored for a minute or two without being shoved in to a
crate.

It isn't a punishment--it is a chance for the puppy to calm down and reflect
upon the fact that biting=no more play. If you don't confine the puppy, you
will give the puppy a chance to continue the behavior you are trying to
stop.
Puppy in crate cannot mouth you or anything else. You try to ignore puppy,
so puppy starts chewing on the couch. You remove puppy from couch, and
puppy starts mouthing you (because you are now interacting with him again).

and

trusts me completely. It's a beautiful thing, actually.

Again, I never said I wanted a domingant dog. I just said I think corporal
punishment is ineffective and old-fashioned.

If it was ineffective, the Kohler methods wouldn't create best selling
books.
It IS effective. Very effective. But only if the rewards and punishments
are applied at the proper times. No, I'm not advocating that the OP beat
his puppy. You can reward a puppy a million times a day for not biting, but
it won't catch on until it finds out that biting=bad stuff happens, whether
that be being ignored, stuck in his crate, flicked, or tossed across the
room. I can't put him in a time-out without using his crate--the sheer fact
that he's alive is enough reward for ANY behavior in his little mind.
Besides, the cat may come along and he may be rewarded by chasing her. Or
he may come across a bit of food that one of the other pets dropped on the
floor. His crate is a place for him to reflect upon the fact that it's a
pretty boring place to be when you aren't asleep (or being fed).

Well duh. I'm in charge , and she's non-agressive. She's actually very
subordinate - out of respect and eagerness to please instead of out of

fear

. She's obedient and well behaved . But that doesn't mean that I have to
snap, pinch, yell, force or anything else. There are other and more
effective ways to train a dog.

Yes, but how would you deal with a dog that isn't subordinate? How would
you deal with a dog that consistantly looked for the opportunity to one-up
you? The dogs I choose to have in my life have a bit of dominant behavior.
I don't WANT a dog that refuses to listen because he knows better than I do,
but I want a dog that is confident in himself.
Furthermore, how do you proof a dog for competition using no-force methods?
You can teach the behaviors, but how do you ensure that the dog will respond
without rewards? I'd rather plop down my $100 and have my CD in 4 months
with a dog that knows that there is no other option than spend three years
getting the dog proofed through positive methods.
I'm not saying that positive methods are bad. I use clicker training. I
don't "punish" but correct bad behavior. Punishment, to me, is something
that extends beyond the capabilities of a dog's learning process.
But there are places where a well-timed correction can get the point across
much more efficiently than trying to reward the good behavior time after
time.
~Emily

the ceo
producing live...
http://dogtv.com

Post by Emily Carroll
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.510 / Virus Database: 307 - Release Date: 8/14/2003

Nessa

2003-09-13 10:30:32 UTC

Post by AuralFeast
Is my puppy normal? She's a field Golden, nine weeks old. We've had her for
two. I've got two small children.
She tested out middle-of-the-road in temperament tests when we purchased her.
She seemed pretty normal when interacting with her 6 siblings. She exhibited
no aggressive or dominant behavior. She was one of the puppies that didn't
nip.
All that's changed. The nipping is constant. Ankles, feet, fingers, arms - it
never stops. Carry her - nipping. Pet her - nipping. Sit there and mind your
own business - nipping. We've tried "no" commands. We've tried ignoring
her. We've tried diversion. Nothing stops it.
She will defer to nothing, two or four-legged. Two days after we got her, she
mounted her sister, which resulted in some nasty growling and fighting. I've
seen her mount one of her toys. She will not respond to a "no" command - ever.
If given a temperament test today - and I understand that she's much more
confident now - she'd clearly score as a dominant aggressive dog.
Then again, maybe I'm overreacting. Maybe I'm overanalyzing this. Maybe she's
just a spirited puppy. Maybe she needs training. But I know I need advice -
my kids are at stake.
I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house, even if they can be
"trained" out. Any experience with any of this? I'm calling the breeder
tomorrow - any opinions this late at night?

I am NOT the one to answer this but she sounds like a normal puppy to me.
All puppies nip. and if i recall yours is a retriever and they are mouthy
breeds.

someone should be along shortly with good advice on how to deal with the
mouthness. My puppy was very mouthy she's a lab pit mix and we just taught
her no, redirected her mouth and taught her that teefies (teeth) were not ok
but KISSES (licks) were.

she's about 18 months old now and the biting is just stopping.

Nessa
--
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies
www.nessa.info

nichael

2003-09-13 14:59:32 UTC

Post by Nessa
she's about 18 months old now and the biting is just stopping.

BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!

the producer
live...
http://dogtv.com

Post by Nessa
Nessa
--
Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies
www.nessa.info

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 12:49:57 UTC

I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?

"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.

No different tune," ~Emily

Post by AuralFeast
Is my puppy normal?

Yes :) I have a 9 week old (Lab) so hopefully I can be of some

help.

Post by AuralFeast
All that's changed. The nipping is constant. Ankles, feet,

fingers,

arms - it

Post by AuralFeast
never stops. Carry her - nipping. Pet her - nipping. Sit

there and mind

your

Post by AuralFeast
own business - nipping. We've tried "no" commands. We've

tried

ignoring

Post by AuralFeast
her. We've tried diversion. Nothing stops it.

Try flicking her on the nose every time she touches skin. Once

she gets

good at dodging, start holding her and flicking. Rusty will sit

there with

his mouth open *WANTING* to bite but knows better. If it

continues past 4

months, I'd start stuffing her in her crate for a "time out"

whenever teeth

touched you or your kids. But by that time, the flicking and

other

unpleasantness should be over, and it shouldn't be a problem.

Post by AuralFeast
She will defer to nothing, two or four-legged. Two days after

we got her,

she

Post by AuralFeast
mounted her sister, which resulted in some nasty growling and

fighting.

I've

Post by AuralFeast
seen her mount one of her toys.

Yes, they can be very cocky until told otherwise.
She will not respond to a "no" command - ever.
Probably hasn't a clue what it means. Try a "AH AH" sound (from

the back of

your throat). I've found that this works in almost EVERY dog

out there.

"No" sounds like another human-noise. This grabs their

attention because

they aren't used to hearing us make that kind of sound.

Post by AuralFeast
If given a temperament test today - and I understand that

she's much more

Post by AuralFeast
confident now - she'd clearly score as a dominant aggressive

dog.

She's a puppy and hasn't yet learned any sort of control over

herself.

Furthermore, she doesn't have other puppies to tell her that her

shit does

indeed stink. You need to replace them by making sure that she

understands

her place in the universe. It takes awhile. I have lots of

experience with

adults (including TRUE dominant aggressive dogs)--and I'm still

finding this

a very new situation.

Post by AuralFeast
I don't want a dog with agressive charastics in this house,

even if they

can be

Post by AuralFeast
"trained" out. Any experience with any of this? I'm calling the breeder
tomorrow - any opinions this late at night?

They aren't aggressive characteristics. It's a puppy that

hasn't yet

learned it's place. Yes, most likely, if you ignore all of

this, and submit

to her as she grows, she will become aggressive. But ANY dog

regardless of

initial personality can be taught how to be aggressive by stupid

handling.

The easy part is never teaching them through firm, clear,

consistant

handling.
~Emily
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.510 / Virus Database: 307 - Release Date: 8/15/2003

Randi Helene Tillung

2003-09-13 13:59:26 UTC

Good one Kaaboo

And - I am sorry to say that your ignoring probably isn't persieved as
ignoring from your puppy. It is impossible to say no and ignore at the same
time. Ignoring means *not giving attention*. :) It might even be that you
make him stop, and then ignore him - you have then ignored that he is being
good.

A good tip would be to read "How to teach a new dog old tricks" by Ian
Dunbar. Everything you need will be there :) He goes through puppybiting
very thoroughly with good examples.

I would be more concerned if your dog didn't mouth you - they are the ones
that don't display normal puppy behaviour. In every puppycourse I have
biting is one of the main concerns from the puppy owners. The two others are
housesoiling and being alone. You are not alone.

Good luck to you and your happy, healthy, social puppy!!

Randi Helene Tillung

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-13 15:18:33 UTC

HOWEDY Randi Helene Tillung,

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
Good one Kaaboo

Perhaps you didn't read kaabooo's post carefully?

kaabooo is a dog abuser just like ~emily, only she
don't RECOGNIZE IT, just as you didn't.

HOWEDY mamawolf,

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
X-No-Archive: Yes
Hi Jerry
I looked at your website and dog manual.

Thank you. Your life and that of your dog's and family
will be greatly enriched, if you follow the instructions.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
I agree with much of what you have there.

INDEEDY. There's NO CHOICE. Every thing The Puppy
Wizard sez is SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN FACT.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
What's hard to reconcile for me is that you are so horribly
rude to people on ng's,

You mean, rude to HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing
Punk Thug Cowards, led by professor "SCRUFF SHAKE
and SCREAM 'NO!' into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock
IT in a box for ten minutes reflection" dermer of the department
of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI, Master Of Deception
blankman of dogplay.CON, ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN,
sindy SADIST mooreon of HOWER faqs pages at k9 web,
captain arthur haggerty and his cronies booby maida of
presidential dog training and babbette haggerty, janet boss,
disciple cad HOWER theological esthetician, disciple cris,
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn, and the rest of the liars and
dog abusers on HOWER forums who's only intent is to defend
their alleged right to HURT and KILL dogs as they see fit?

Them? You think The Puppy Wizard is RUDE to DOG
ABUSERS and LIARS, and that OFFENDS YOU, mamawolf?

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
and that in your quoted testimonials from people who have
used your manual, several different individuals misspell the
same exact words.

This ain't SPELLin class, this is BEHAVIORISM. If The Puppy
Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Student's misSPELLs words, that's for a other forum...

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
While I agree with a lot of your ideas,

Exactly which do you NOT agree with? The Puppy Wizard
doesn't compromise.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
have you ever considered that perhaps if you toned down
your abusive nature towards folks posting, more
people might be interested in listening to you?

Oh. You mean, BE NICE to LIARS and DOG ABUSERS,
so we can all GET ALONG?

BEWAAAAAHAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

The Puppy Wizard ain't interested in GETTIN ALONG
with NAZIS, LIARS, and DOG ABUSERS. That's HOWE
COME we still got these liars and dog abusers HURTING
and KILLING dogs today, cause DECENT DOG TRAINERS
won't ADMIT we got LIARS and DOG ABUSERS here.

The Puppy Wizard came here to IDENTIFY, DISCREDIT,
EXXXPOSE, and DISPATCH HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog
Abusing Punk Thug Cowards.

For the first time in history, we can PROVE SCIENTIFICALLY,
that ALL behavior problems are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
You also might want to copy the emails crediting your system
directly,

As they have been.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
because the same words incorrectly spelled by several different
individuals could lead one to think the emails were perhaps

false

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
in nature.

HOWER DOG LOVERS like to tell folks they're FORGERIES
cause THEY ALL SHOWEND THE SAME SAME SAME SAME.

That's CONSISTENCY, at it's very BEST. The Puppy Wizard
GUARANTEES 100% TOTAL, NEAR INSTANT SUCCESS,
for FREE or HE'LL get the heel HOWETA this business.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
Just my 2 cents,

KERCHING! Here's your change, Ma'am.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
and thanks again for your manual.

It's The Puppy Wizard's Pure Pleasure.

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
Kc

Follow the instructions and ask The Puppy Wizard
if you need any additional FREE help.

----- Original Message -----
From: George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D.
To: Andrew
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 11:08 AM
Subject: DOGGIE DO RIGHT, wanna join the party?

Andrew, Jerry Howe is here as I type and we have decided to
create a human mellowing branch and to sell the marvel mystery
device. Here is my first draft. What do you think?

George

Friends and colleagues:

A couple of years ago I became interested in Doggy Do Right
(DDR) a sonic device which inhibits barking in your neighbors'
yappy dogs. I tested the instrument and became pleased at the
silence in our neighborhood.

I perused the manual for the DDR which has significant
guidance for loving your own dog so that the wee beast no
longer leaps up on you, howls, whines, tears up your shoes,
escapes, digs holes, spins around, throws up in the car, eats
paper, self-mutilates, fears thunder, suffers when you go to
the store and don't take him, and all the other ills and
behavior problems to which the domesticated dog is prone.

Jerry Howe, the inventor of the DDR, understands doggy
behavior so well he might well have been a student of Sam
Corson (Pavlov's last student who fixed hyperactive dogs, and
started our profession, as well as the profession of "Pet
Facilitated Therapy").

It occured to me that we might put ourselves out of work. If
a sonic device can mellow hyperactive dogs, why wouldn't it do
so for hyperactive kids and neurotic adults?

So, I am inviting a few friends and colleagues to join me in
forming a company, which will lease BABY BE GOOD; HAPPY
BOY; SWEET LITTLE GIRL; MAMA BE MELLOW; PAPA BE
STRONG - these are just first pass names for the device in its
several adjustments. Jerry Howe, genius inventor says you
have to refine the adjustment for .

More than a thousand owners agree that DOGGY DO RIGHT
happifies the dogs next door so they don't bark. DOGGY DO
RIGHT also happifies the dog in your home so that she doesn't
do all the unwanted, unpleasant things that dogs often do.

AND!!! DOGGY DO RIGHT happifies the humans in your
house so that they are more mellow, happy, quiet and not
so dratted obsessive and angry.

Problem here. Is this therapy? If so the poor little silently
singing device needs $4,000,000 to do an FDA study.

THANK GOD! IT ISN'T THERAPY!

It is the same effect that Baroque music has on emotion, learning,
behavior and memory. Baroque music mellows and enhances and
so does DOGGY DO RIGHT.

Of course, these wonderful results have to be proved, by
acceptable means.

=======================

Jerry, don't think I sent this to you. A remarkable success
for DDR - I keep wanting to call it, Doggie Be Good, DBG.

Maybe we ought to try it as an alternate name! Set up your
own competition.

Fondly, George

----- Original Message -----
From: Andy
To: George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D.
Cc:
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: Doggie Do Right;

I have to agree with George. I found out about this and asked
George to look into it. Got good results, so I bought one. I
have 6 LOUD dogs outside my back window, chained up all the
time, less than 50 feet behind the house. They used to keep me
up nights until I bought the DDR machine. Now, quiet.

Yes, they bark when someone gets too close at odd hours, but
then they stop. Used to be they would bark for hours. (Their
owner must wonder what happened, I called the cops a couple of
times, but didn't want to drag him into court.)

Andy

At 05:06 PM 5/5/2003 -0400, George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D.
wrote:

Doggie Do Right; Kitty Will; A Rooster did and a Cockatoo or
two did too.

The inventor is visiting with me. I am severely impressed.

So, I wanna know, do you wish to explore with me the marketing
of this device.

Greg tried the machine out; Andy has one; I can't recall if I
told John about it or not. You'd love the guy, he looks like
Johnie Appleseed before his hair went white, long black
beard, but no bs.

Not defensive at all when I asked the hard questions; a bit of
an idealist when it came to making money, but he's sold a
thousand of the damned things, and has some very solid
references.

I ran his EEG when the instrument was broadcasting and
damn it changed the brainwaves. Hot rats.

I think we could do good, and do well, too.

The point of it is that my evidence is that it will calm down
kids, stop seizures, and mellow out their parents. We have to
prove this, but he already has a psychiatrist with excellent
comments; and me; and sampling his sales will build a lovely
package. 1000 sold already.

I made another trial with new dogs just up the street and the
damned things shut up. The dogs next door have remained
silent since I first tried it a year ago.

What ya think? George

=============================

A non dog owner, Dr. Von, a child psychogist and
biofeedback training specialist, tested my machine
at the request of one of his friends who wanted his
opinion as to the efficacy of my machine. He loves
the concept, as it mirrors his approach to educating
difficult children:

----- Original Message -----
From: George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D.
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 3:21 PM
Subject: [GVS]doggydoright

I just had a nice talk with the man who invented
the "doggydoright" device.

If you know someone working at a shelter etc
who wants to quieten the dogs in the neighborhood
then this is an ideal present for them - and he will
sell it at a discount. He sounds like someone we
all know who has no sense at all about money.

Nice, nice man.

"doggydoright" may be obtained from
***@EarthLink.Net

I now have four locations at which the thing has worked,
so I recommend it.

Yap yap yap no more! I have zero financial interest in this.

George

============

The Puppy Wizard's
Doggy Do Right (And Kitty Will And A Rooster Did
And A Cockatoo Or Two Did Too)

- The Little Black Box That Cures Animal's Annoying Habits -

Here are a few publicly posted, verifiable, unsolicited
testimonials:

From: Chris Williams (***@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST

Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.

A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.

She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.

============================

Chris Williams writes:

"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"

====================

Jerry says:
HOWE'S the baby's seizures?

parentadlitem says:
better

Jerry says:
got any idea how much better?

parentadlitem says:
not really

parentadlitem says:
she doesn't do em here that i see

Jerry says:
amazing

Jerry says:
when's the last time she seized with you?

parentadlitem says:
weeks ago?

Jerry says:
but before the machine it was daily?

parentadlitem says:
every minute!

Jerry says:
does her mom use it at her HOWES?

parentadlitem says:
yup

parentadlitem says:
i yelled at her about it

Jerry says:
ask her when's the last time she saw a seizure for me

parentadlitem says:
k . she's sleepin now, ill talk to her tonight, she's comin
over

Jerry says:
yeah... that's pretty good stuff

parentadlitem says:
yup

parentadlitem says:
i love mine

parentadlitem says:
no barkin the neighborhood at all anymore

parentadlitem says:
ever

Jerry says:
right

parentadlitem says:
once in a blue moon some distant dog will bark

parentadlitem says:
but all the neighbors dogs are quiet

Jerry says:
when you hear that distant dog throw the machine on

parentadlitem says:
we do

parentadlitem says:
it's really rare though

=================

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
Hi There Jerry
Its Nevyn. Sorry Ive not been posting, but I've been
working weekend work at the tracks with the greyhounds
(thanks to you!).
Well my dogs are the envy of all on my street. I can
have them out in the yard with me, take them walking
without a leash, they will do any command with no
hesitation. And they don't bark anymore! Thanks to
your machine!
Oh yeah, I loaned your machine to several friends
"I would say my dogs are well trained, but they suffer
severe anxiety when no body is home. This machine
quietened them almost instantly - still they barked,
in the beginning, but just one or two barks. Then
slowly they just stopped... beginning to bark, then
instantly stopping.
It took only 2 weeks, and we did nothing.
Truly amazing;
I have recommomeded it to my family, and perhaps
they will buy one. Its a shame you don't sell them publicly".
-- Kylie, 30, on dogs Lili (11 yr mutt bitch) and Sheeba (4 yr
Rotty X)
"My two dogs barked insanely when someone would
go past. With this little machine they quietened right
down, and even became partly obedient, and we did
nothing!
Great stuff.
We ran it only on the lowest setting, too!"
- Ed, 65, on his two male Dobermans, 5 yrs old.
Well I have some more, and am collecting more,
but I only have one machine so its a slow process.
Once again I say thankyou Jerry! My family was
on the verge of giving them up! :(
But no longer :)
=====================
Subject: doggie do right
Date: 2002-08-01 06:57:15 PST
doggie do right rocks!!
We were sent one of these fantastic machines 5 months
ago to see if it would help with our rambunctious mutts.
The doggy do right has done more than just work...it
has worked miracles!
Our pair of noisier than freight-train doggies were barking
so loud at our neighbours and passers by that we were just
about ready to find them new homes. But within just two
months of using the Doggy Do Right they were nice and
quiet and stopped barking at the neighbours.
They did relapse a little when their owner went away,
but we started the program again and within days
they were both quiet and obedient once more.
Our doggies have now not barked unnecessarily
for over 2 months.
Thanks Jerry! You have made my dreams come true!
Aimee.

Subj: Fear of Thunder
Date: 6/29/02 6:07:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Jraltman
To: Witsenddog

Dear Jerry,

I hope you'll be able to post this message so more people who
are at their wit's end will be able to help their dogs.

To review:

Our puppy was uncomfortable during thunder storms.
At the beginning of the problem, she paced restlessly
from room to room. She couldn't settle and sleep.

From there the problem grew. She would run to the
far southeast corner of the house (which makes
sense because most storms here come from the
northwest) and she'd cower in the corner of the
couch and shake.

1st attempt to help her:

I'd pick her up, brush and massage her (call me a nut -
I've sung to her when I've done her daily brushing since
she was tiny so of course I sang too) and when she
relaxed, I'd put her in her crate. She then slept and I
thought the problem was solved.

Traumatic event:

We were out in the park playing with one of her doggy
friends when it began to rain. On the way home, there
was the loudest, longest, thunder clap I've ever heard.
From that day on, the problem got worse and worse.

I couldn't calm her with singing and massage. The
fear spread. She wouldn't go out if it was raining.
No thunder, just gently summer rain, and she
wouldn't go out.

The solution:

I surfed the net and came across a free manual Wit's
End Dog Training Method and a product called Doggy
Do Right that seemed better than anything else I came
across.

A phone call to Jerry Howe, author of the manual and
Director of Research, Biosound Scientific, convince
me to try both the manual and the product.

Problem solved:

I followed Jerry's suggestions (more phone calls - he
is most generous with his time and advice).

The first two thunder storms my puppy was restless but
not running around in a blind panic. The third storm, she
barked her deep, stranger danger bark after each clap of
thunder. The fourth storm, she seemed uneasy at first.

Soon she was asleep at my feet and she napped through
the rest of the storm. A miracle. I am endlessly grateful to
Jerry for his manual and his machine.

A word about Doggy Do Right. It is odd to buy a machine
that emits a sound I cannot hear. I took the chance because
Jerry offered a full refund including shipping.

Though I heard nothing, my puppy clearly did. When I first
turned on the machine, she got the cutest, most quizzical
look on her face. She looked at me as if to say: "What's
that? I never heard that before." She looks at the machine
when it is on.

She rests on the floor beneath it.

It is obvious from her behavior that she is aware of its
cycles.

Amazing.

Thank you Jerry.

=============

"misty" <***@webtv.net> wrote in message news:21047-3CAD0E8A-***@storefull-2291.public.lawson.w
ebtv .net...

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
Jerry sent me the DDR when I mentioned my cockatoo
was stressed out by my then just learning to walk
baby.
Buddy was screaming day and night..lunging at Joey
whenever he crawled up to Buddy's cage and nipping
the baby ( if Buddy wanted to his beak is powerful
enough to sever an adult's finger in one snap!) At
first we noticed nothing... after a few days
..nothing..nothing except quiet :-)
That's not to say Buddy never screams.. heh.. he'a a
'Too.. but the late night scream-a-thons ended.
He also tolerates Joey playing in his water dish
<sigh> just what I want...2 splashers! Buddy loves
to bathe in his water until there's more water on
the floor and walls than in his dish :-)
Twice now Buddy has had marathon scream-a-thons...
for a few days each time. It takes that long for me
to realize the DDR is unplugged :-O
Once cos DH did some maintenance and forgot to plug
it back in ( of course he remembered to plug the
washing machine back in ;-P)
The second time I had unplugged it while
sweeping...and forgot to plug it back in...
We sure enjoy him being such a good bird! He's been
so loving to everyone... my older 2 boys love being
able to give him scritches again.
~misty
(No, Jerry, you can't have the DDR back just yet! :-)

===================

Elaine McClung, President of Pet Rescue, Animal Commissioner
Brevard Co FL, writes: Sep 9, 2000

"I ordered from Jerry a long time ago.. He was helpful
and the order was filled promptly. Yes, Doggie Do Right
does indeed exist.

I "had" a very aggressive female Pit.. She was showing
aggression not only towards Dok, Rhodesian Ridgeback,
but our cats and even us.

She now plays with Dok, even to the point of allowing him
to take a toy or bone from her. She no longer shows any
aggression towards us. She is showing some aggression
towards the cats but that is down to a warning growl.

It is not just my opinion that all this aggression
existed before Doggie Do Right as we were advised by
three vets to euthanize her.

I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it
has helped my dogs and cats. I do think your product is a
valuable tool in helping with aggression and other
behavior problems.

I am in Feral CatNetwork (we spay and neuter
approximately 100 feral cats a month), I am also a member
of a local AKC dog obedience club, member of a local AKC
agility club, president of Pet Rescue, board member of
the Alliance for Care and Welfare of Animals (on the
board are: county commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC
dog club, CFA cat club, assistant County manager, head of
animal control, director of two different shelters, etc.)
and Space Coast Feline Network
http://www.spacecoastfelinenetwork.com

Thanks, Elaine,

===================

Hi Jerry,

I wrote to you a week or so ago about the unit. I have
since borrowed one from Elaine Mc Clung. She speaks very
highly of it.

So, I brought it home and plugged it in. Of course, I
wanted it to come on, all the barking stop, and have
every one immediately fall to the floor in little comas
for a few hours. Well, after I got all 27 of them to be
quiet, still no comas. But, it had only been 36 seconds
at that point. So, I gave it a little longer. Still no
comas. Was this really going to work? I mean, I do have
an unusual situation.

So, by bedtime, a few hours later. I started to notice
just how many were asleep already - with their feet in
the air! I started to have hope. During the night, all
was calm. In the morning when I got up, only a few of
them WALKED quietly to the door to go out. Not the usual
evacuation.

I had the unit from Sunday afternoon until Tuesday
Morning. I was certainly pleased with the night effect. I
wasn't so sure about the amount of the day time effect.
Until I took it back. Within half an hour, the monsters
had resurfaced. I wondered if I could break into Elaine's
house and if she would notice :)

I know another person who does dog rescue. She rescues
Beagles. She has 23 in an 1100 square foot house. God
bless her. She is interested to see if it will work for
her. I also spoke to someone else who does cat rescue,
and she is interested. The cat rescue people have monthly
meetings. Maybe Elaine could give a word or two about it.

So, if there are any words of advice you can send my way
about the best way to use it in my case, I would
appreciate it. I of course wanted to keep it on the
highest setting, but don't know if that is advised, even
with my situation of so many new ones coming and (too
few) going.

Also, how I and others can go about getting one, etc. I
think the vets should have the info in their offices. It
must help dogs with separation anxiety. My vet practices
homeopathic as well as traditional medicine, so I
would think it would be right up her alley.

Thank you.
Desiree M Webber
A New Leash On Life

================

From: "Regina Guerrero" <>
To: <***@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: Thank You!

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
I just wanted to take a bit of time
to tell you how much I appreciate your product and
your training methods as well.
When my little Chihuahua first arrived
I was overwhelmed with her anxiety and
her ability to just Bark endlessly.
I received your product and at first I thought
I was using it wrong, because my puppy just seemed to
ignore it.
But after a week or two, she began to calm down
considerably as well as act more friendly towards
people on the street.
I can't believe the difference I see in my little
puppy. Your product is a life saver!
Thanks again for everything.
Sincerely,
Regina Guerrero

==================

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
Jerry has taken the time to help me out off the NG. I have
a very loud cockatoo who has been having problems adjusting
to my 8 month old son.
Joey is learning to walk. He likes to use Buddy's cage as a
hold on for dear life object.
Buddy wasn't exposed to toddlers prior to Joey.. my older
two boys went through this stage in a different house where
Buddy had his own room and the boys had only visits, not
daily contact 24/7.
Buddy has always been spooked by "tiny" humans. Joey has
been driving him nuts! He showed his disapproval by
non-stop screaming. A cockatoo scream can be heard a block
away with all the widows shut <g> being in the house it
makes your ears pop and your nerves crawl.
Jerry sent me Free his DDR. He sent instructions on how to
use it. He answered my questions quite politely.
I have been using the DDR in my kitchen ( where Buddy is
located~ teensy 4 room house) for 3 weeks.
At first I noticed no difference in Buddy's behavior. Then
I realized after a week that he no longer screamed for
hours on end. This isn't to say he stopped completely <bg>
he still demands his share of all meals. But he doesn't
start screaming at 10 pm when he wants _everyone_ to go to
bed. Last week he had a day where he screamed all day. My
nerves were frazzled. I went to turn the DDR up a notch per
Jerry's instructions. I discovered the DDR was shut off! I
turned it back on and left it on the lowest setting. Buddy
calmed back down and quit screaming.
In the time that I've had the DDR on I've had a lot of c*ts
come to my house. One I adopted and he's quite the sweetie.
He's a yellow tiger named Gatomon ( means c*t monster) who
is very friendly with my kids and Zelda.
I may not like how Jerry treats other posters but I do like
the methods he shares. Being on a limited budget I like
things that are free. I also like the fact that I can
e-mail him and get advice whenever I need it.
Even my DH who is a technical minded kind of guy thinks the
DDR is working. ( He went to Devry and has a degree in
electronics, knows alot about radios and anything
mechanical... he's a jack of all trades around the house
<g>). He does NDT for a living.
We don't expect to need the DDR forever.. As soon as Joey
is walking, Buddy will realize that he's not a strange
animal.. some kind of furless dog or c*t <bg>.

==============================

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
Rosa, I got the doggy do right machine from Jerry
in Jan and my dog relaxed in the first week. He
does not have SA but he scratched himself raw
until I got the machine. He also was a frantic
chewer on his sticks until I got the machine.
In less than a month he really relaxed. Now when
the machine in on he just lays down and goes to sleep.
If there is something outside that upsets him like a
cat in the yard I just turn it on and he can cope.
You will see all sorts of comments about the machine
being as loud as a freight train etc but it is small and
can not be heard by humans. I know he can hear it
and that it relaxes him because I can see him relax
when he hears it.
I used the machine outside on the patio to quiet to
dogs behind us that barked a hundred times a day.
In two weeks they reduced the barking by 80%--
When they barked after the machine was on Sunshine
ran to the patio as they were alarm barking not just
barking to pass the time.
I asked the owners if they had noticed the dogs barking
less and they said yes they had guessed the dogs were
just growing up.
Sunshine loved daycare but he was kicked out when he
got aggressive but now than he has been trained with
Jerry's Wits End Method and the machine I think I will
let him go back to daycare.
I am disabled so I can not run and play with him and
I know he needs to play with other dogs.
Go to www.doggydoright.com and read about the
machine and get a free copy of Wits End Training
Manual--since the info is free you won't lose anything
and you can really help your dog.
Linda and Sunshine

-------------------------------

Post by Randi Helene Tillung
I moved to Jacksonville, Florida about a year
ago with my lovely wife linda. 3 times a week
for 7 months I visited the Dog shelter and
Humane Society looking for a German Shepherd.
There were several times they had a dog there,
but I was looking for a bitch. The reason for this
is, all my life I have always had a female German
shepherd. Therefore, I wanted another one. Finally
about 6 weeks ago, I found her. "Angel" looked
just like my previous dog of 12 years. I called my
wife, she came down and fell in love with her immediately.
We filled out the paper work and left the Humane
Society with her.
We drove directly to Pet Smart to buy all the essentials.
We bought the biggest crate available. Let it be known I
have never used a crate with any of my previous dogs.
The biggest difference is my other dogs I had from puppy
age. Angel just turned 2, 3 days before adoption.
Angel appeared to be happy the trip home. Her ears
were down all the time and her tail was so far between
her legs that it looked like she had 3 ears. (humor)
None the less, we knew we had a dog that was insecure.
The first night we let Angel sleep in the living room.
However, we had to go to work the next day. We pet
her, kissed her and put her in the crate in the middle
of the living room. During the day, my sons came
home to walk her, give her a little loving and play with
her. Then put her back in the crate and go to work.
When we got home the first day, everything in the
crate was ripped to shreds.
The neighbors approached us and said that the dogs
barked constantly for 3 hours then barked continuously
after my sons left again. We thought it was because
everything was new. We were wrong. The dig did
this every day for 4 days.
The 4th day was our first scheduled visit with the
vet. The vet told us he can see that the dog is
suffering from abuse and separation anxiety. So,
the vet puts the dog on clomicalm. (not sure of the
spelling).
Well, for two days the dog walked around like Jerry
Garcia on a Friday night after a concert, stoned!
However, we were home with her the entire weekend.
We crated her for work and came home to a barking
dog, ripped bedding in the crate, upset neighbors
and the plastic bottom of the crate completely torn
to bits. It was obvious that crating was not a good thing.
The next day we decided to leave her out of the crate
to see what would happen. What a major mistake.
We came home to almost $1,000 in damage.
Furniture, the blinds were all chewed and torn down, etc.
The next day we put her in the crate again. This
time we came home to a nice 2' x 3' hole in our
carpet in the middle of the living room, right down
to the cement. I told my wife that we cannot afford
to keep this dog. We should go out and get a puppy.
She was upset and said there must be something
we can do. I told her this. " I will go on the internet
and see what is available". I was desperate and
wanted to see if there was someone who could help.
We read the information about the DDR and emailed
Jerry. Jerry was kind enough to give us his phone
number to discuss Angel in more detail.
First, at no cost he sent us his manual. We started
doing exactly what he said to do in the manual.
Exactly as we did was was written, the results were
exactly as he said it would be. Then we purchased
the DDR.
This is an amazing god send to us. First of all,
Jerry sent it to us without paying. (thanks for that
gesture) This has such and AMAZING effect. This testimonial
is kind of winded so I will say this......Jerry's product
literally saved this dogs life.
Angel can be left alone during the day. NO CRATE. The
dog shows absolutely no sign of anxiety at all. Jerry told
us the product works immediately and it did! She does
not bark at all during the day except when the mailman
drops mail into the slot on the door. The manual for
training works exactly as it says!
We told our vet about this and he said that there are
all kind of gimmicks. I told my vet that as a person who
holds a degree of higher education, there just are some
things they don't have in the text books and he should
be receptive to that. We are proof. Angel was one
day from going back to the humane society.
Listen to this...My wife wrote one of the so called know
it all of pets. His response to the exact letter we
initially wrote to Jerry..."Get rid of the dog, bring her
back" I'll save this person embarrassment by not saying the
name. However, you know who you are and I have this to say
to you. Go pump gas or bus tables because you
sir, do not belong working with animals!
Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
you my friend are a life saver!!!
Anytime you need someone to speak about the results
of your product, you have my number. We would gladly
talk to them.
Thank you very much for all your help. God bless you...
Anthony & Linda Testa
Jacksonville, Florida

=====================

A non dog owner writes:

Dear Jerry-

I just wanted to let you know how wonderful your Doggy Do
Right product is. I was skeptical at first, but have been
tremendously pleased.

As you know, we had a neighbor's dog that was extremely
bothersome, at times barking loudly for 3 hours straight.
Within a few days, the barking decreased, and now it is
just the occasional bark. this dog lives approximately
500 feet away, and even at that distance, the machine has
done wonders.

You were always available and patient to answer my
questions, and now I can be in my own home without going
nuts from the barking. As an added pleasure, all the
other minor barking nuisances in the neighborhood have
stopped as well.

Quiet is wonderful! Thank you.

Pam Graves

===========================

"I know that most men, including those at ease with
problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept
even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would
oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they
have delighted in explaining to colleagues, proudly
taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by
thread, into the fabric of their lives."
-Leo Tolstoy-

Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other
controversial post I have made to date, bar none?:

CAVEAT
If you have to do things to your dog to train him that you
would rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing
them. If you have a dog trainer who tells you to jerk your
dog around, choke him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes,
shock, shake, slap, scold, hit, chin cuff, scruff shake or
punish your dog in any manner, that corrections
are appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the
punisher, or that corrections are not harmful, or if they
can't train your dog to do what you want, look for a
trainer that knows HOWE.

Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
http://www.doggydoright.com

Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-

There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all who
come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the head
should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-

The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are
learned qualities.

The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow to make him smarter.

The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on
praising split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and
timing, not mindless hours of forced repetition, constant
corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-

The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW ; ~ ) >

ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW ; ~ } >
oo-oo

Kind2dogs

2003-09-15 14:27:41 UTC

Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Date: Mon, Sep 15, 2003 10:15 AM

Post by Emily Carroll
So you wouldn't smack a kid's hand that was about to turn over a boiling

pot

Post by Emily Carroll
of water on itself?

Absolutely not. If I were responsible for a small child (and I have been,
many a time), and saw the child about to tip a pot of boiling water over,
the LAST thing I'd do is slap the child.
In the first place, if the child's too small to be around boiling water,
**I** am at fault for allowing the situation to occur at all. Secondly,
it
isn't going to teach the child anything (except to fear me), and may very
well startle the kid into getting hurt.
If it's a matter of needing to *stop* the child quickly, I'd most likely
pick him up and remove him firmly from the vicinity. Depending on the age
of
the child, I would then probably get an oven mitt and teach the child how
to
SAFELY handle the pot of hot water with my help.
I'd most likely also pour a bit of the hot water into a mug, let the child
touch the outside of the mug to see how hot it is, let them hold their hand
over the mug to feel the heat, and let them touch the water once it had
cooled a bit.

This is exactly what I would do as well, Sarah.

Paulette~

Post by Emily Carroll
So how long does the play stop? The 1/2 second it takes a dog to learn?
Doesn't work like that.

It worked for Rocsi, and every other dog I've raised. The play stops
MOMENTARILY, the dog calms, we resume play.

Alpha

2003-09-15 22:05:10 UTC

It is not the dog but the owners.

--
David Sweeney
STI
QK9SARG
"Send Seek Find"

www.qk9sarg.org

www.qk9sarg.org

Leah

2003-09-17 13:37:35 UTC

LOL Tara! And why didn't I ever get those instructions????
They must have gotten lost because I sware I can't stand any
kids squealing!

I had to live with my BIL for a year. At one point, his girlfriend and her two
little monsters moved in. The boy, about 3 at the time, ran around yelling
"Bam bam bam bam bam!" non-stop. The little girl, about 5, would sing
constantly. She was tone-deaf, to say the least. And when they played
together, there was screaming, huffing, squealing, etc.

One time when I was just about to either stuff socks in both their mouths or
kill myself, I heard their mom say, "Aren't their voices cute?"

Cute??? Yea, as cute as nails on a blackboard.

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

Gwen Watson

2003-09-17 13:31:35 UTC

Post by Leah
Cute??? Yea, as cute as nails on a blackboard.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

Can I ever relate.! LOL

Though at the time it isn't funny at all.

And this comes from a women that things
the screeching of a "sun conure" is music
to her ears. Just like living in the rainforest.<G>

And people are always saying how can you stand
that birds screeching?

Gwen

Leah

2003-09-19 01:04:49 UTC

How are you with your parents now?

Dad died about 5-6 years ago, and I lost my mom two years ago.

But we had a very good, close relationship, as long as I was living halfway
across the country from them. :}

PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life:
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-19 01:51:10 UTC

BWEAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!

Post by Leah

How are you with your parents now?

Dad died about 5-6 years ago, and I lost my mom two years ago.
But we had a very good, close relationship, as long as I was

living halfway

Post by Leah
across the country from them. :}
PetsMart Pet Trainer
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Last updated June 27 at 10:00 a.m.

Kind2dogs

2003-09-19 18:08:46 UTC

Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Date: Thu, Sep 18, 2003 9:04 PM

How are you with your parents now?

Dad died about 5-6 years ago, and I lost my mom two years ago.
But we had a very good, close relationship, as long as I was living halfway
across the country from them. :}

: )

Paulette`

The Puppy Wizard

2003-09-19 23:04:49 UTC

Yeah. Makes as much sense as "TOO MANY NO KILL SHELTERS,"
eh, KIND2DOGS?

Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Date: Thu, Sep 18, 2003 9:04 PM

How are you with your parents now?

Dad died about 5-6 years ago, and I lost my mom two years ago.
But we had a very good, close relationship, as long as I was

living halfway