HOWEDY matt brenneman,
That's a EXXXCELLENT dog. paul e. schoen thought
his RESCUE dog Muttley was Kuvaz <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaWhy do you think that a Kuvasz is a good fit
for your lifestyle and circumstances?
That's a IRRELEVENT question. These EXXXPERTS
just LOVE to BLAME THE BREED for their inability
to train a dog, matt <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressFirst, thank you for the information.
These dog trainin NIGGERS was blowin smoke up
your magickal scientific arse, matt <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressI'll respond to your question and Janet's,
Ahhh, two of the least competent of the
muggers you've been gettin advice from.
Post by junoexpresswhich was somewhat similar to yours.
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAAA~!~!~!
"Birds of a feather... You're JUDGED BY the company you
keep. When you lie with PIGS you'll awaken STINKIN like
'em," The Puppy Wizards' DADDY <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressThe reason I have ambivalent feelings about Kuvasz is because
You mean it's on accHOWENTA you've bought into the
alpha THEORY Faerie Tails you've learned from lyin dog
abusin punk thug cowards and mental patients.
Post by junoexpressof why I want a Kuvasz in the first place.
You want a big dog to make you feel like a man like paul e. schoen.
Post by junoexpressThey are beautiful dogs, but I could get a Great Pyrenees
or a Samoyed, if I wanted a big white fluffy dog. For the
most part, however, I want a protection dog.
I've got 45 years trainin giant breed protection dogs.
Post by junoexpressMoreover, and> this is a big factor, I want a
protection dog who can act independently.
HOWE a dog WORKS is regulated by his TRAININ.
Post by junoexpressI also like the idea that (from what I have heard),
From dog abusin cowards.
Post by junoexpressthey do not let people into your house,
ANY dog can be trained to protect his own HOWES.
THAT'S INSTINCTIVE if you don't ABUSE IT.
Post by junoexpresseven if they've been in your house before.
THAT'S HOWE COME I COLLAR TRAIN dogs.
The TRAINING DICTATES the dog's response,
not CIRCUMSTANCES or FEELINS <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressTo me, this is almost the definition of a good protection dog.
You wouldn't know a good protection dog if IT bit you on the
transverse.
Post by junoexpressI live in a small rural country town and I am a research
mathematician, so I don't tend to have large house parties
with lots of people ;>). Thus, for the most part, I don't have
to worry about how my dog interacts with a wide variety of
other people, because there's not a lot of people around where
I am, and I have a small circle of friends. OTOH, when I do
take the dog out where there are people, I want to be in control
of the dog.
Then you'd have to learn HOWE to pupperly handle an train IT.
Post by junoexpressI want to be able to walk the dog on a city street without
fear that it will injure a small child that might cross our
path. But then again, on the *other* other hand, if I am
walking and accosted by someone who does mean me harm,
then I'd want the guard dog to kick in independently.
AS IT SHOULD BE. HOWEver, I don't think you've got
the intellectual ability to handle trainin a dog like that. I
suggest you get a Bichon and carry IT arHOWEND so
you won't have a ACCIDENTAL bite. And if you're
accosted by a man you can shove fluffy into his face and
maybe IT will bark and scare him away.
That so?
Post by junoexpressI want a protection dog that is independent (i.e it
will take action if it has to without being told),
Well, if you're carryin fluffy he'll be in position to save you.
Post by junoexpresswhile at the same time, I want the dog to be obedient
to me so I am able to be able to control the dog.
Well, perhaps you should also get a couple of Chihuahuas
and shove them into your pockets and then you'll be safe
from even the pickpockets.
Sez WHO? Socialization on a dog is DONE by the
time IT leaves the litterbox otherWIZE you'd not be
ABLE to HANDLE IT AT ALL.
Post by junoexpressit basically teaches the dog what is not threatening.
No, THAT'S what teaches dogs to BE AFRAID and ATTACK.
Post by junoexpressI have been told that a Kuvasz that is taught to socialize
with small children, for example, will let a small child
stand on its tail without complaint.
LIKE ANY DOG, matt. You've been followin the "advice"
of DOG ABUSIN MENTAL PATIENTS and you're too
ASHAMED to face the truth <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressIt learns that a jogger running past is not a threat, etc. And
I don't have a problem with taking the time and making the
effort to take the dog everyday to a park in the nearby city
so it can socialize with other people and dogs.
THAT'S ABSURD.
Not to be a nitpicker, but you mean 'anyHOWE' <{}'; ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressif you have any further thoughts on the matter,
I would appreciate your feedback.
INDEED?
Post by junoexpressI think your question as to my motivation in
wanting to own one is a very important one,
It's BULLSHIT.
Post by junoexpressand one which I have tried to evaluate myself.
Perhaps you should look a little deeper.
Post by junoexpressI think the two questions any dog owner should be
HOWE COME do you want to BLAME THE BREED
for bein incapable of trainin ANY dog, matt?
Post by junoexpressis this breed of dog suited to my lifestyle and
secondly, what are my expectations of this dog.
Your EXXXPECTATIONS are NORMAL. HOWEver,
your RESEARCH has failed dismally <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressMany dogs could be spared a bad home if
more owners thought about such things.
That's ABSURD. If dog abusin cowards didn't jerk choke
shock surgically sexually mutilate and lock their dogs in
boxes and ignore their cries DOGS WOULDN'T HAVE
temperament and behavior problems.
Post by junoexpressAnd the lifestyle issue leads me to raise one final point,
which is that if anyone who has a Kuvasz that does not
herd, wants to weigh in, I would appreciate that also.
BWEEEAAAHAHAHAAAA~!
You think dogs NEED JOBS? That's INSANE.
The End Of An Era Of
Systemic / Ritualistic Animal Abuse
As You've
Known, Taught, And LOVED;
It's ALL OVER, FellHOWE DOG LOVERS <{}: ~ ( >
The Universality Of Effective Scientific Conditioning
HOWEDY FellHOWE Dog Lovers,
HOWEDY DanO,
Post by junoexpressTo: Delusional Dimensions
Subject: tpw
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007
Jerry-
I looked at your website, and I think the text from 2002
in a text file is WAY easier to read. Maybe it's the
simplicity of black on white, or the larger font,
Yeah. The font seems to differ with different web browsers.
I don't know if I can change the charcoal grey background
or not, but I'll look into it. Meanwhile, you can look into
the comand bar on your browser and set the font BIGGER!
Post by junoexpressor the lack or ranting against the way things are,
No, that AIN'T HOWE things ARE, DanO. THAT'S HOWE
The INCURABLES would PREFER "THINGS" to be <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressbut you could also add it as a text file to be
downloaded, as it was on the old site, for readability.
Perhaps I should put the INSTRUCTIONS to READ IT usin
a TEXT to SPEECH READER at the beginin of each page?
Post by junoexpressSo I posted this in a couple of places. I got
a couple of replies, fewer than expected.
Yeah, I noticed a couple posts from an odd forum. Was
that you posting as "Wade" callin me a "trippy dippy
hippy", DanO? I couldn't find the beginin of the thread.
Post by junoexpressChange IS difficult.
Not really. I was carryin a gun for Uncle Sam
when the "hippies" was pupular and wouldn'ta
hesitated to blast them into Kingdom Come like
HOWE they done at Kent State <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressI see your latest posts are less outrageous,
Yeah. I've been tryin to be KINDLY to the miserable pathetic
stinkin lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active accute
chronic life long incurable malignant mental cases <{}: ~ ) >
Thank you, DanO. It AIN'T nearly as EZ as not murderin
peaceful protesting hippies; "change IS difficult" you
know. But I figger if usin my methods on dangerHOWES dogs
works as consistently well as it has for more than four
decades it would probably work on these maggots if I was
consistent for a couple months.
It AIN'T EZ, HOWEver.
Here's a SAMPLE of HOWE COME "change IS difficult":
Subject: Re: Help with barking
Post by junoexpressMaybe I'll try Jerry's idea of
praise.
Pretty much all of Jerry's "book" is plagiarized and so he's
basically totally incoherent about what's actually going on
with providing praise.
The praise functions as a distractor, much like a penny
can but a lot less spooky. In a purely-positive, 100% clicker
training world you'd wait for the dog to stop what it was doing
and then reward it for stopping.
In the real world it would take months (if ever) to get
the dog to knock it off, and so you distract the dog and
reward it when its (quiet) attention is back on you.
I guess Jerry's "book" is okay, but because he didn't write
it and doesn't understand dog training he can't answer
questions and becomes extremely abusive if you ask them.
Just by way of a heads-up on that.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -
***@panix.com Prouder than ever to be a member
of the reality-based community
--------------
Post by junoexpressI think it will serve you well!
INDEED? And THEN **Dalin** said "thanks" to the
carpet muncher "for the heads up" <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressLike Aikido, using an opponent's momentum to
send his ass flying is easier on yourself.
Yeah. HOWEver, UNlike in Akido (a HARD style) we
DON'T FIGHT MENTALLY ILL OPPONENTS, which is HOWE
COME I prefer Wu Shen Kung Fu, a soft style with
some hard elements for use when necessary <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressNot your disciple, just a student,
And a dissappointingly POOR student, at that, DanO <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressno doubt not your favorite,
I have NO favorites, they're all the
same same, just like my dogs <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressbut I least I come to class,
Next time, please to PAY ATTENTION <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpresseven when you've thrown me from the classroom.
Oh, THAT'S on accHOWENTA you're an unworthy student <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressIf I get just one other person to stop
yelling at their mutt, it's worth it.
Well, IN FACT, you DIDN'T. You've PERPETUATED
the OBSFUCATION of my methods, DanO <{}: ~ ( >
ONLY if you stay after class an let
Post by junoexpress-DanO
__________________________________________________
I got a hold of the first edition (1966) of
this book for $9 by searching biblio.com
Dr. Dare Miller's site
Now 80, why Dr. Miller waited until
2006 to get online is not clear.
Oh, THAT'S EZ, DanO. Dr. Miller AIN'T a DOG TRAINER.
he's a PSYCHOLOGIST doin RESEARCH <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaIf he had, usenet might be a friendlier place.
No, DanO. They'd call him a LIAR just like HOWE they
done to EVERY SINGL WON of MY STUDENTS includin Dr.
Larry Male and Dr. Von Hilsheimer. We're dealin with
LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN MENTAL CASES who'll DO an SAY
ANYTHING to DEFEND their alleged RIGHT to HURT
INTIMDIATE MUTILATE an MURDER innocent defenseless
dumb critters to compensate for their fragile
defective egos, weak fearful minds, and colossal
inferiority complexes.
Post by junoexpressBut now we know where the "science" came from,
AS STATED in my manual the conditional reflex was
COINCIDENTALLY discovered by Pavlov when he was
using dogs as the basis for human psychological
behavioral EXXXPERIMENTS:
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <***@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400
You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.
I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.
This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!
The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.
Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.
A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.
Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.
The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.
The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.
They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)
Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.
It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.
One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!
Even Skinner understood this!
And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist
who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX
THERAPY.
Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.
-----------
It WORKS on accHOWENTA it works. ANY compentent
observer of animals would NOTICE the COINCIDENTAL
RESPONSE to any stimulus. I never read any more
abHOWET Pavlov than what I learned in 7th grade
science class.
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <***@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <***@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005
Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.
I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.
There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.
Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology
Post by junoexpresswhether with instruments and costs,
or soda cans, coins and free text.
No DanO. You can't say my methods are the same
as Pavlov's OR Dr. Miller's. MY methods RELY on
PRAISE IN ADVANCE and PROLONGED NON PHYSICAL
PRAISE INSTANTLY following the brief variably
alternating non physical distraction.
My methods are based more on Sam Corson's and
Konrad Lorenz's work and Nietzche's philosophy:
"All Animals Learn Best Through Play," Lorenz.
"Distrust ALL Whom The Impulse
To Punish Is P-HOWERFUL,"-
- Nietzche.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson,
Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH,
That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender
Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys <{) ; ~ ) >
And I NEVER heard of EITHER of THEM till I met Dr. Von and
I heard of Lorenz from LeeCharlesKelley. I'm just a poor,
highly uneducated, backyard, shade tree, shit kickin dog
trainer who can hardly SPELL withHOWET heelp from my dear
ol grammar who's feelin poorly these days <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressI've only started reading it, but basically, you use
sound to both install a command by alternating commands
with and without sound, and extinguishing misbehaviors
with sound only, then praise and redirects.
NO, DanO.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME I'll throw you HOWET again <{}: ~ ( >
If these miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin pathetic
punk thug coward active accute chronic life long incurable
malignant MENTAL CASES wait till their dogs STOP the
undesired behavior they'll end up SHOCKIN an CHOKING an
MURDERIN them on accHOWENTA the DISTRACTION DOES NOT STOP
the behavior otherWIZE it'd be PUNISMENT accordin to
SCIENTIFIC terminology and definition.
Post by junoexpressThe Method decribed Teaching COME How he came up with
the chains Then you do this in 4 places or 4 different
environments to seal the deal by generalizing it...
because we all know chewing on a shoe in the living
room is different (if you're a dog) than chewing on
one found by the backdoor!
Sound familiar?
Yeah. That's what I'd been teachin my Great Dane puppy
customers since I was fourteen years old, fully thirty
years pryor to readin Dog Master Systems and discoverin
some remarkable similarities. Too bad Dr. Miller didn't
have a background of raising and training giant breed
dogs that can't be physically manhandled into behaving;
his method would maybe have been nearly as comprehensive
as mine <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressOnly this is well written, thus easy to understand.
Sorry DanO, but I can piss higher than Dr. Miller <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressI'll elaborate further upon finishing it. I spoke with
? the man for 2 hours, on his dime, and can tell you we
? should hope to be as lucid if we get to be 80!
Yeah? So did Dr. Larry Male pryor to studing my method.
"Old age," like MOST DIS-EASE, is a SYMPTOM of
poor diet, inadequate EXXXORCISE and STRESS.
Post by junoexpressIn case nobody here caught the inference to usenet
being a friendlier place, let me explain.....
Rani my now 3.5 yr old, was severely overbit, so much
so, I had to find a dentist to cut and fill her bottom
piercing holes in her gums just inside of the upper
canines.
As such, she was the omega of her litter,
I've NEVER used any such terminology. Furthermore,
I ESCHEW such thinking as it's misleading at beast
and in essence, FALSE <{}: ~ ( >
EVERY THING the self professed EXXXPERTS THINK they
know is EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE it IS.
Post by junoexpressand no doubt got beat up by her squarer jawed siblings,
No. That AIN'T HOWE COME your dog behaves as she does.
ALL temperament and behavior problems ARE CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING:
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
Post by junoexpresswhich is why she was so sweet,
You mean SUBMISSIVE, DanO <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressand crawled into my wife's lap (to escape them!)
"The lesser of two evils".
Post by junoexpressThe downside, besides the worry and cost, though
was that she was VERY submissive, and traditional
training methods were not going to get us where
we needed to go.
And you learned THAT, HOWE, DanO?
Post by junoexpressSo I got on the net, and ran into The Amazing Puppy Wizard,
Jerry Howe, on usenet. Now he was already pretty belligerent
to those who questioned his methods in the newsgroup,
NO, DanO. The pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal
murderin punk thug coward active accute chronic life
long incurable malignant MENTAL CASES NEVER QUESTIONED;
they LIED and STILL DO, to DEFEND their alleged RIGHT
to HURT INTIMIDATE MUTILATE an MURDER innocent defenseless
dumb critters just as you have, on accHOWENTA my teachings
EMBARRASSES THEM TO DEATH and DISCREDITS their work.
Post by junoexpressand most there had kill filed him to avoid his rants.
They read my posts FIRST, DanO <{}: ~ ) >
AND THEN they write to the new readers WARNING
them not to BELIEVE ME on accHOWENTA if I'm
RIGHT, they're ANIMAL MURDERIN MENTAL CASES
and I've PROVEN IT.
WOULDN'T YOU AGREE, DanO?
Post by junoexpressBut at this point, with her going belly up to the
first stern word and shutting down at the mere sight
of a training collar,
LIKE THAT, DanO <{}; ~ ) >
From: Eric
To: ***@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in..
Jerry!
You helped me with my pal Dundee about a year ago
regarding submissive peeing. Just wanted to let you
know he's doing great- he was "cured" in about 2 days
using your techniques!
He has since become the "smartest dog in the world"!
Once I stopped thinking like a human and got inside his
head, I can teach him ANYTHING, usually in a matter
of minutes. Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.
I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up, wormed
'em, and am getting them their shots. Time to get inside
their heads and teach them to teach themselves how to
be good dogs!
Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I look
forward to working with these guys a couple times a day...
Although I don't follow your instructions "to a T", I
learned from you to "think like a dog" and stimulate
their brain rather than beating ass or pinching, or any
of that nonsense.
I know damn well I would NOT be loyal to someone
who beat MY ass lol!
Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the bushes
out there and teaching folks the RIGHT way to "train" dogs.
A horseman friend of mine uses very similar techniques
in training his horses- he calls it "natural horsemanship".
He is hated by nearly all the local "trainers" yet somehow
he repeatedly wins at every show he attends. He rarely
shows any more, but goes now and then to rub their noses
in it (pun intended)...
Too cool....
Have a great holiday season and keep up the good work!
Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard
==========================
"Whether we choose ot use positive, negative, or a mix
of reinforcements, we must be sure that our buddy on the
other end of the leash can identify the specific behavior
for which he is being rewarded or corrected." "Smart
Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet Lewis.
THAT'S the "HIGH STANDARD of CARE"
J.Q. Pubic is offered BY
"THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS"??:
"Linda" <***@msn.com wrote in message
news:
I have been trying for the last 18 months to help
my dog who became fear aggressive at 18 months of
age.
I do not know what started the problem but he
became aggressive first with dogs and then began
lunging and snapping at people. Until this time
he loved everyone and could play with any dog.
He was well socialized and I took him with me
everywhere.
At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks
but it was not working on his aggression problem.
I took him to vets who suggested a low protein
diet, trainers who charged $800 to only make him
worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze,
urinated and tried to climb on my head to help
him. they then suggested a shock collar I knew
this approach was not working as he was becoming
more aggressive.
I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D.
400 miles away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE"
and read a book on the fearful canine. I tried
another trainer who tried to use a nylon choke
collar but it only made him worse.
I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH",
"DOG ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER
END OF THE LEASH", ETC looking for help.
We finally went to Purdue University Small
Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he had
fear aggression, punishment would not work,
use the gentle leader and when out walking
and he got stressed have the people stop until
he could get in control using treats, and work
on clicker training.
At that point I knew more about clicker training
and using the gentle leader than they did!
Nothing was working--he would not come when I
called him and would run away when I tried to
catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and
women who hasn't trained her dog"
I went to four trainers in both Michigan and
Florida who were trainer/specialists in
aggression and the last two were so afraid of
him they could not approach him. No one said I
should give up on him and kill him but they would
say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you
are responsible for him."
*(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got
Sunshine DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)
As last resort I tried the internet again--I had
had on going discussions with trainers from
Triple Crown and Dr. Meister with out any
help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do Right and
messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but
I could not believe him even when I downloaded
the manual.
The name of the method was right I was at my Wits
End. I had been working for 18 months!
Using the can sound three time he came, and
still comes from anywhere with the command-
"comegoodboy".
Next I tried the can when walking him--when he
saw a dog three blocks away he went off-lunging
and snapping-I used the can sound and he looked
at me like uhn?
I used it three more times and we got to the
other dog--the looked at me wagging his tail-
-the other person looked at me like why are
shaking that can but just walked on by.
When ever I try to explain about the sound people
look at me like "you must be out of your mind"
The results can make a believer!!!
Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
Manual program I walked him without the gentle
leader in a busy shopping area with many dogs.
He just seemed to not notice any one.
When people talked to him or ask his name he
would look at then and wag his tail and let
then pet him.
I still can not believe the change in him--we
can now enjoy life out in public.
If I had not found the Wits End method I know
there was no hope for him and he would have
hurt someone Through all this he never growled
at me, guarded his toys or food or showed any
sign of aggression with me.
My goal is to get the message out to all dog
lovers that dogs can be trained fast, easily
and problems solved with out force, pain, food
or anything but sound and praise!!!!
I know most people would have given up on him a
long time ago but he was and is my life. Solving
the problem was EZ but only with the right
approach-sound and praise.
I know because I tried everything else and
nothing worked!!!
================================
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost
anything to get your approach out to dog owners as
I know it would save so many lives. I know at times
I was so frustrated I thought of giving up on Sunshine
but of course I never would have but many people
would have. The world just does not know you can
train a dog in just a few sessions and actually solve
problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no
plans--just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so
any time you could meet us would be great. I drive so
I would be happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles
got right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a
little scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of
times people would ask his name and want to pet
him and he just went to them tail wagging and rolled
over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing,
even those on rollerblades! I have always used a
gentle leader in public but he spent most of time
rubbing his face on the grass--today I used his collar
and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I
have a hard time getting him going--at times I think
he could smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able
to walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not
having a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the
street until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-
prozac-but thought he was too dangerous as the drug
would make him less fearful and then he might attack
or become more sure of himself and become dominate
aggressive. Just had to share their great advice with
you but I am sure you have heard it all--even I am
becoming an expert on bad advice.
----------------------
Post by junoexpressI decided to engage him.
You coulda tried a gentle SHOCK COLLAR, DanO.
You know, they AIN'T like HOWE they used to be
when they first came HOWET back when I'd only
been trainin dogs for maybe ten years or so.
Post by junoexpressI downloaded his "Wit's End Training Method"
which was more totally positive than even
clicker training.
An EXXXCELLENT point, DanO. Clicker trainin
AIN'T "positive" nor is it harmless. Clicker
training relies on offerin an witholding
BRIBES and INCREASES anXXXIHOWESNESS to
dangerHOWES levels where aggression, seizures
and obsessive compulsive behaviors occure.
Post by junoexpressOn the newsgroup, he eschews both traditional
old school Koeler type yank and crank classical
conditioning AND clicker/treat type operant
conditioning and new school behaviorists with
equal parts of outrage.
Actually, in the interest of scientific correctness,
classical conditioning means simply WAITING till the
dog offers a behavior on his own volition and then
putting it together with a cue <{}; ~ ) >
So, to "classically" HOWEsbreak a dog, you'd
have to WAIT till nature takes it's course
and the dog stops shittin an pissin in your
HOWES on his own, THEN praise him for not
doin it.
My method works by PRAISING the dog WHEN he
pisses or shits in your HOWES, to DISARM him.
KINDA LIKE THIS:
A. S. Neill, Tthe Famous Founder of The Summerhill
School, Used To Cure Delinquent Children Way Back
In The 1950's By Paying Them For Every Time They
Wet The Bed Or Broke A Pane Of Glass And Their
Behaviour Would Stop, - As If By MAGICK!
The Embry Study:
"While some may find it strange that reprimands
might increase the chances of a child going into
the street, the literature on the experimental analysis
of behavior is replete with examples of how "attention
to inappropriate behavior" increases the chances of
more inappropriate behavior.
Thus, suggestions to parents that they talk to or reason
with their children about dashing into the street will
likely to have the opposite impact. Reprimands do not
punish unsafe behavior; they reward it."
Source:
"Reducing the Risk of Pedestrian Accidents to
Preschoolers by Parent Training and Symbolic
Modeling for Children: An Experimental Analysis
in the Natural Environment. Research Report
Number 2 of the Safe-Playing Project."
---------------
Nor had I EVER heard of A.S. Neil till I met Dr. Von
Hilsheimer. A.S. Neil was Dr. Von's mentor. Perhaps
THAT'S HOWE COME he's so fascinated by The Sincerely
Incredibly Freaking Insanely Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard, eh, DanO?:
From: "GEORGE VONHILSHEINER"
To: "Jerry Howe" <***@mail.com>
Subject: Proposed article for Wikipedia
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006
The Amazing Puppy Wizard is the cognomen of a dog behaviorist,
Jerry Howe, of Orlando, Fl. Howe's primary teaching is that
dogs deserve unconditional love, respect, and attention and
that by providing these emotional needs dogs will regulate
their own behavior.
Howe is bombastically antagonistic to rewarders, but he is
aggressively hostile to punishers - he refers antagonists
to B.F. Skinner, Mary Cover Jones, and J.B. Watson and
especially to Samuel A. Corson when they mistakenly annunciate
behavioral principles to support their use of punishment.
Punishment always deranges behavior, says Skinner,
Jones, Watson, Corson and Jerry Howe!
Howe developed a sonic device which calms dogs and has
been broadly tested in a wide range of different situations.
The present author is a Who's Who recognized psychologist
who was asked to evaluate Howe's device by a former student.
Howe provided the author with a device, without
charge, and said device worked as reported.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
***@earthlink.net
Then cross reference to Jerry Howe, etc.
Jerry, the difficulty with these ignorant dog molesters
is that they cannot read. Negative reinforcement is no
response by the trainer.
There is positive reinforcement, an action which is followed
by an increase in the targetted behavior (usually called
"reward" which is precisely and technically a misnomer),
negative reinforcement is the absence of any response.
Negative means 'No'.
Skinner's last book, "CUMULATIVE RECORD" reviews this
thoroughly. http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/proj/nru/nr.html
Negative reinforcement is stopping an aversive reinforcement
according to this author. Read it, they have a sense of humor!
There are four forms of systematic reinforcement:
do nothing (negative reinforcement)
reward the behavior (positive reinforcement)
punish the behavior (aversive reinforcement)
after habituating the subject to punishment,
stop punishing (relief of aversion, which is negative reinforcement).
Logically, failing to reward after habituating a reward
is also negative reinforcement. Actually intermittent
rewards work better than consistent, invariable rewards,
so there is actually another two categories. Invariable
reinforcement and random reinforcement (on varying schedules).
Punishment is AVERSIVE REINFORCEMENT.
Actions which cause the animal being trained to avoid,
avert, cringe away from. Pavlovians always responded
to American psychologist's inability to reproduce Pavlov's
results with dogs with the comment, "American's don't LOVE
their dogs". If you ever observed a Russian psychologist
working with a dog, you'd instantly see the difference.
American psychologists were wooden, robot-like,
wanted to be "scientific".
This meant to them that they should display no
affection, or any other emotion with the subjects.
When a Pavlovian dog started to misbehave or fail to respond,
doggie was taken out of the equipment, and taken home for a
loving vacation, with much TLC. Sam Corson, Pavlov's last
student, demonstrated the same relationships at Ohio State.
Interestingly the first page of results for Sam Corson,
dog behaviorist is loaded with Jerry Howe quoting Dr. Von.
heh heh heh
Dr. Von
Oh, by the way, you once had a pompous fellow say that
Dr. Von was a figment of your imagination. I don't
normally mention this, but I have been listed in Who's
Who in the S & SE USA since 1982, and in the big books,
Who's Who in the USA, WW in the World, WW in Medicine
etc, and WW in Science and Technology, since that date.
These are the Marquis Publications, the "real" WW, and
you can't get yourself into them.
GvH
============
Post by junoexpressBasically, it's the same employment of
the use of sound as that of Miller.
NO, DanO. Basically it's ENTIRELY DIFFERENT.
If you was a DECENT student you'd realize this.
Post by junoexpressHe also uses praise, lots of it, even
when the dog is misbehaving
INDEEDY. And THAT'S HOWE COME my dogs don't cower
and crawl up in your lap and roll over an piss
themselves <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressand you sound to interrupt,
NO DanO, THAT would be PUNISHMENT <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressand that is more contrary to most folk to think
they should praise before compliance than they
can wrap their heads around.
But YOU know better than THAT, NHOWE, DON'T YOU, DanO <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressTo me it's like the chicken or the egg, who cares?
For nearly forty five years of my career professionally
raising and training dogs specializing in temperament
and behavior problems and protection work the DOGS have
ALWAYS CARED, DanO. My MOST DIFFICULT students have
ALWAYS been psychologists, teachers and electronic
engineers <{}: ~ ( >
Even the K-9 cops I've trained got more dog
savvy AND EMPATHY than these cretins!
Post by junoexpressI like eggs and chicken both!
Well then DanO, please wipe that egg off your face <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressIf compliance is happening quicker with praise first, so be it!
That's just HOWE it IS, DanO <{}: ~ ) >
As spokesperson for (p.c. neutral genderHOWES terminology
[not bein much of a man an all *(malinda picks up the slack
for me), particularly not bein able to HURT a dog WHEN
NECESSARY]), in an effort to avoid conflict and hurtin
anyWONS FEELINS The_Fershtunken_Beef_Stroganoff_Council_
cites the following, regardin PRAISE:
From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Thurs, Oct 7 2004 5:57 pm
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <***@aol.com>
Leah: > How in the world does the dog learn *not* to
Post by junoexpressdo something by getting praised for doing it?
IMHO, it's a silly idea.
No doubt. I was more than a little perplexed myself, the
first time I tried it (with the chicken breast), but by
then I'd already come to the conclusion that almost everything
we think we know about dogs is wrong.
Praise is one of things.
So if it's silly, and if praise really works for the reasons
you *think* it does, why did it work with the chicken breast
example? (Hint: I already explained it in a way that gibes,
on some level, with operant conditioning.)
383 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Mon, Aug 23 2004
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <***@aol.com>
leah: > I can't fathom how praising them for an inappropriate
Post by junoexpressbehavior could teach them anything.
Kelley: As I said, that's because praise is one of the most
misunderstood tools in dog training. It may pain you to know
this but Jerry Howe is actually right (mostly) about how praise
works.
Since most of you have him filtered (and not without reason)
it might be helpful to read what he actually has to say,
without all the craziness mixed in. To wit:
Howe: "While we do want to interrupt undesirable behaviors,
we do not want to totally prevent or distract the dog
from the opportunity to attempt the behavior once again."
"We want him to be able to resume THINKING of the behavior
in order to totally and permanently extinguish it. That will
usually happen in about four repetitions of the technique."
"We want to tempt and distract and praise each thought
of the behavior till it's no longer thought of due to
non fulfillment through repetition of distraction and praise."
"Most people try to prevent the behavior which means the
desire for that action will remain in the dogs repertoire,
only to occur at a less predictable and convenient time..."
<snip>
"Instantly correcting a behavior without addressing
it fully keeps that behavior available and the process
continues"
Kelley: The only thing Jerry has wrong in this exlanation is
in saying that the dog has an "idea" or a "thought" about the
behavior.
I prefer to put it in simpler terms, that the dog has an impulse
to produce the behavior. Just correcting the impulse doesn't get
rid of it, and in many cases, makes it that much stronger.
Praise is used to change the impulse to produce the unwanted
behavior into an impulse to reference the one doing the praise
and then to look to him or her for a cue as to what to do next.
I'm not 100% sure about the chronology, but Jerry may have
learned this from a case history detailed in my booklet "No
Bad Dogs, Just Bad Trainers".
In that instance a dog was conditioned to turn the behavior
of barking every time the phone rang, into a completely new
behavior: the ringing of the telephone became a cue for him
to find a toy and take it to his bed and chew on it.
The chief compononent of my training strategy was to have
his ower immediately praise the dog for barking when the
phone rang, instead of correcting him, which had no effect
(he was a Jack Russell terrier.)
Then she jumped up, grabbed a toy, teased the dog with it,
played a bit of tug, then told him to take it to his bed.
Then she answered the phone. (The whole procedure only
took four or five rings so it's not like she was prevented
from taking calls during the process, though she did put
up a fuss when I told her what she had to do.) Within
three days the barking behavior had been replaced with
the finding a toy behavior.
One other thing: in this case I think it was important to
know the dog's temperament and WHY he was barking at the
phone. The actual mechanics of he strategy were specifically
designed for that particular dog, though the underlying reason
for it and its effectiveness would be the same in other cases.
Here's more from that madcap Jerry Howe: "HOWE COME PRAISE WORKS?
"Every time your dog makes even the briefest eye contact
[with you], even a fleeting glance out of the corner of
his eye, THAT REQUIRES praise."
"Not too long [a time praising him], no staring,
just a smile and a "Good Boy, Nice Dog."
"Pretty soon, every time you say Good Boy, he'll be looking
right at you. And when you say Nice Dog, he won't be able
to think of ANYTHING ELSE but YOU."
Maybe that's HOWE COME PRAISE WORKS?
Kelley: There's a bit more to it, of course, and that's the
fact that the common ideas about praise come, in some form
or another, from the ideas that a dog will adjust his behavior
to satisfy his supposed instinct to fit into a social hierarchy,
or to please his owner.
These ideas are false. Due to the way the canine prey drive
evolved to enable dogs and wolves to hunt large prey by working
together in a spirit of group cooperation, dogs come genetically
programmed with a desire to work in harmony toward a common purpose.
Praise both stimulates and satisfies that genetic need.
From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Fri, Oct 8 2004
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <***@aol.com>
Diane: > The fact that you thought this was a good example
Post by junoexpresswithout understanding why it was not speaks volumes.
1. She had no idea that you were praising her for
being ahead. 2. Since you allowed her to come back
the praise must not have been for being ahead. 3.
Ergo you did not reinforce the behavior of staying ahead.
All I can say is you have got the strangest way of looking at this.
First you seem to think that dogs have "ideas" about
what they're being praised for. They don't. They
just respond to things through their emotions.
Second, I didn't "allow" anything. The point is most people
think that praising a behavior while it's happening reinforces
the behavior that immediately preceded the reinforcement.
I simply pointed to an example of how praising a
behavior doesn't follow that model of learning.
I wasn't trying to teach the dog anything to do in this example:
to stay ahead *or*to come back to me. I was just pointing out a
flaw in the basic logic about praise that causes most people to
respond in a knee-jerk fashion to the idea that praise can
sometimes be used to correct a behavior.
You took that to a completely strange and irrelevant level by
turning it into another pissing contest about how hard it is
to train a dog to stay ahead of you for an obedience trial.
Who cares?
Diane: > This is a good example of why trying to do more complicated
Post by junoexpresstasks than are typiucal in pet training would be so useful
to you in learning.
When the tasks are set for you and the standards aren't
your own they are much more challenging to achieve.
The only thing I'm trying to do here is illustrate
that praise isn't what most people think it is.
The situations I've described are not necessarily a standard
part of my training practices, and as far as the particular
example of the dog walking ahead is concerned, it has no
practical purpose in training, except maybe to get the dog
to enjoy responding to you and reference you over the environment.
And may I just say to you and KBrown and others: I'm sorry,
but I think making a pissing contest out of who's won what
titles in what obedience trials as opposed to being "just
a pet dog" trainer is a crock of . . . well, you know what.
Teaching owners and puppies how to live a happy life together
and rehabiliting dogs with wounded emotions is a much higher
calling than earning titles in *anything*.
The only standard I'm concerned with is animal happiness.
If that's too low a standard for you -
- well, *that* speaks volumes about you.
Anybody out there who trains circus dogs?
You want to take me on next? (And don't get me started on
how *humane* it is to train dolphins to do tricks in a
little tank.)
73 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Fri, Oct 8 2004
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <***@aol.com>
Leah: > I did try to get my head around your theories, but I
Post by junoexpresscan't buy them. praise *reinforces* the dog's behavior
I'll give you an easier example: say you're walking through
the park with your dog. She starts walking a little ahead
of you but not isn't intensely focused on something in the
environment, she's just a little restless to move ahead.
You praise her entususiastically and she turns and comes
back to your side. If praise were only a reinforcer,
praising her for moving ahead of you would have made her
feel that *that* behavior was good and reinforced it, right?
She would have been more likely to
stay in front of you than come back.
So in this example how and why did praise have the
opposite effect and *change* the behavior rather
than reinforce it?
72 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Fri, Oct 8 2004
Leah: > So if it's silly, and if praise really
Post by junoexpressworks for the reasons you *think*
it does, why did it work with the chicken breast example?
Leah: > Coincidence.
If it were just one case, yes. But I've used it consistently
in this manner, with a lot of different dogs, so "coincidence"
doesn't explain it.
Leah: > I've seen it proven too many times that praise
Post by junoexpress*reinforces* the dog's behavior.
Me too. I'm not saying that it *can't* be used as a reinforcer.
It can and should. But how and why, exacly, does it "reinforce"
a behavior?
And why can it consistently be used to do *both* a
reinforcement and a correction (depending on the situation)?
Because the conventional understanding
of how and why praise works is wrong.
Leah: > If a dog has something in his mouth he shouldn't,
Post by junoexpresspraise tells him it's okay to have it.
Is that *really* what's going on? If so why can it have
the exact opposite effect and motivate the dog to give up
the object? What, exactly, happens to the dog's emotions
when you praise him?
Does it really make him "think" or feel that what he's
doing is right or good? Or is something else going on
that you haven't considered?
-------------------
From: Lucy A. Afar
Date: Fri, Oct 15 2004
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaIf this is so, then why are these methods being
rejected and ridiculed, in this group?
It's not the methods being rejected and ridiculed. Well,
not completely. Distract-and-praise is pretty much standard
dog training fare. Praising the dog for unwanted behavior
is not, and when Lee is asked for further information about
it he says he won't tell unless he's paid. Hence the
rejection and ridicule.
Oh, but there's plenty about praising unwanted behavior
in order to extinguish it in Jerry Howe's manual, as well
as in most of his posts.
He gives precise indications of how to do it, step by step.
I can well understand that what he says about the regular
posters here is not pleasant to hear, but can't one see the
merits of the method only because one detested its author?
Also, in what Lee is concerned, he gave a few very interesting
examples that went almost without comment - the few posters who
cared to respond did so only to ridicule what - in their own
words - they had failed to understand.
And that was well before Lee mentioned the "getting paid" thing,
so it wasn't in response to it. Like the reaction to Lee's telling
about how he had dealt with a very aggressive Rottie. Did you see
that post? What do you think about such an approach to dealing
with aggression?
Post by junoexpressHe's said some other patently ridiculous things, as well,
for example that the only true drive is prey drive. That's
not a method problem, though - more of a methodological one.
Perhaps. But for me, who am not a trainer, the practical
aspects of dealing with a dog, the way to figure out what's
in the critter's mind, are more interesting than the purely
theoretical aspects. In the end, what we want is to understand
the animal, don't we? Perhaps there are more than one possible
theoretical explanation, but that which matters is the one that
allows to develop a method that always works, doesn't it?
Lucy
---------------------
64 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Thurs, Oct 7 2004
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymethod @aol.com>
Wacko aka gentleman jack morrison aka joey finnochiarrio aka
howie lipshitz aka DOGMAN aka tommy sorenson of sorenson's
Retrievers: > think of everything you know that makes sense,
Post by junoexpressand do the opposite.
You're almost right, for once. (I'd leave out the part of
things "making sense" and start with some little thing you
ve been taught that maybe *doesn't* make sense, then build
from there.)
That was part of my initial impulse when I praised Fred after
he'd picked up the chicken breast. But by then I'd figured
out that very little of what passes for "knowledge" in the
dog world makes sense.
Truthfully, I had no expectation that it would work and was
surprised as hell that it did. And it *continues* to work
to this day.
105 From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Fri, Oct 8 2004
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymethod @aol.com>
Leah: > I think you're being too liberal with assigning
Post by junoexpress"emotional tension" to every behavior. A dog
doesn't counter-surf because he's stressed. He
does it because he knows there are good things
on the counter.
Why would a properly-fed, emotionally balanced dog need
to eat anything more than what's in his bowl every day?
Ever look at statistics on how many people in this country
re overweight? Is it because they're not getting enough
to eat?
No, they're eating to reduce emotional stress.
Eating more than you need is an unnatural behavior for
an animal, *any* animal, unless there's an underlying
psychological or physiological imbalance of some sort.
------------
You mean anyHOWE, don't you, DanO <{}'; ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressI plowed through the text, which is not so peppered
with maniacal misspellings as his online rants, and
though not the greatest prose, quite understandable.
I engaged him in email conversations in which he was
both lucid and helpful.
AND POLITE, to boot, wouldn't you agree, DanO <{}: ~ ) >
HOWEver, HOWER fellHOWE DOG LOVERS PREFER NOT TO UNDERSTAND.
Post by junoexpressThen, one day, he found a post of mine on another group
in which someone had posted about their dog running deer
and killing them. I replied that I had a dog once who
would run deer, and remembered thinking at that moment
the dog was becoming a distant crash in the woods that
I'd wished I had a remote with a red button (e-collar).
Yeah. Kinda like the Children Of Isreal at the foot
of Mt. Sinai building a "golden calf" despite havin
just been RESCUED from SLAVERY, wouldn't you agree,
DanO <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressWell that made him go quite bananas on me,
Yeah. You're LUCKY I ain't freakin G-D. You'd wander
the dessert till your feet wore HOWET <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressI became his prey item and he slandered me online
nastily as he is want to do with anyone who doesn't
think him the messiah of dog training.
G-D would be more accurate, DanO <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressSo I quit talking to him, as nothing I said mattered anyhow.
You mean anyHOWE, don't you, DanO <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressBut I continued to employ the technique, and even went so
far as to train my neighbor's dogs quickly with it! 3
different dogs, all with issues soon were heeling well,
and doing the sit, down,come and stay all need to live
without conflict, very well at least for me if not my
neighbors, much to their chagrin.
One of the 3 was a vicious pit staked and ignored, and
all I knew was his name, Jake. With him, I stayed on my
side of the fence, and merely praised him, did not even
employ the sound technique much, which in Jerry's method
was a soda can with a few coins, not a expensive sonically
designed chain with a tuning fork.
You can do it ALL with ONLY praise.
Post by junoexpressAnyways, in a few days time, just praising and being patient,
LIKE THAT, for EXXXAMPLE <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressI had Jake quieting, sitting, downing and staying, all
from my side of the fence! Ever try to get your neighbor's
dog to listen to you?
Pssst? These pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal
murderin punk thug coward active accute chronic life
long incurable malignant ignorameHOWES mental cases
can't even do THAT with their own dogs despite or
rather, ON accHOWENTA their PRONGED SPIKED PINCH
CHOKE and SHOCK COLLARS <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressSo the costs are pennies, the text is free.
No wonder professional trainers hate Jerry!
JUST LIKE HOWE the veterinary behaviorists and
university trained psychologists FEAR an HATE
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat,
Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES an Horsey Wizard ALMOST
as much as PARENTS FEAR an HATE HIM, eh, DanO.
So, no need to WONder HOWE COME <{}:* ~ ( >
I got 'em on the ropes and I'm beatin the piss
HOWETA them and it's gettin pretty bloody <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressBut his rants turn most off so they never even
look at the text, assume he's insane and clueless.
NO, DanO. They're DOG and CHILD ABUSING MENTALLY ILL COWARDS.
OtherWIZE they'd go right to my manual an STUDY IT <{}: ~ ( >
DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST QUESTIONS HERE.
Post by junoexpressKnowing this to not quite be the case,
When I SEZ sumpthing you AIN'T GOT NO CHOICE
but to BELIEVE me on accHOWENTA I can PROVE
EVERY THING in writing <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressI decided there's a method here to the madness,
Did you NHOWE??
Post by junoexpressand I took what was useful to me and
employed it easily, and often.
So, NHOWE you're scientifically well versed enough
in behaviorISM that you can pick an choose from
among my methods which are apupriate or not,
accordin to your personal preferences and desires?
Yet you're EMBARRASSED to tell the scumbags who
recommend ed frawley at leersburg kennels and his
pronged spiked pinch choke and shock collars.
Ooops! THAT WAS YOU, REMEMBER, DanO <{}: ~ ( >
Got some NEWS for ya, DanO. EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC
METHODS are NOT a matter of PREFERENCE or OPINION
they're a matter of indisputable SCIENTIFIC FACT
and THAT'S HOWE COME they work UNIVERSALLY on ALL
critters EXXXCEPT pathological psychotic MENTAL
CASES <{}: ~ ( >
LUCKY THING we KNOW the CAUSE of such an INCURABLE
DIS-EASE and therefore CAN PREVENT it in the future.
Post by junoexpressSo now I think I have discovered where the science
came from, and it all makes more sense to me now!
You mean on accHOWENTA you found some guy with a
Ph.D. who tells you sumpthin similar and you think
it's all the same same, DanO? Dr. Larry Male wrote
THIS several months AFTER he'd talked to Dr. Miller:
Dr. Larry Male a.k.a. TooCool wrote in
Subject: "Learning Theory" - An INSULT To Canines:
In regard to Dr Dare Miller, I am surprised at your
ignorance of him. He is a famous ethologist who
specializes in canine behavior. He trained dogs
instantly on live television with Art Linkletter,
Dick Cavett, Johnny Carson, Merve Griffin, Mike
Douglas, Barbara Walters, To Tell the Truth, Betty
White's Pet Set, Ralph Story on AM America, Friends
of Man, ABC, NBC, CBS TV News, etc. He is author
of the "The Secret of Canine Communication", 1966
which is a textbook for veterinarians and others
interested in the etiology of canine behavior. He
was a pioneer in non-force training methods.
His methods employed sound distraction with praise
coupled with an ethologist's intimate knowledge of
canine behavior. His system for raising and training
dogs was designed to cater to a dog's ability to think.
His system of training is very, very similar to The
Puppy Wizard's Wits' End Training Method which
I wholeheartedly support.
===============
From: TooCool (***@hotmail.com)
The Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method
I have studied canine behavior and dog training for
years. I have a huge library that covers every system
of training.
The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits' End Training
Method is by far the most scientific, the most advanced,
the kindest, the quickest and the most effective training
method yet discovered.
It is not an assortment of training tips and tricks; it is
a logically consistent system. Every behavior problem
and every obedience skill is treated in the same logically
consistent manner.
Please study his manual carefully. Please endeavor to
understand the basis of his system and please follow
his directions exactly. His manual is a masterpiece.
It is dense with theory, with explanation, with detailed
descriptions about why behavior problems occur and
how their solution should be approached.
One should not pick and choose from among his methods
based upon what you personally like or dislike. His is
not a bag of tricks but a complete and integrated system
for not only training a dog but for raising a loving companion.
When I once said to Jerry that his system creates for
you the dog of your dreams, his response was that it
produces for your dog the owner of his dreams.
You see, Jerry has discovered that if you are gentle
with your dog then he will be gentle with you, if you
praise your dog every time he looks at you, then you
will become the center of your dogs world, if you use
Jerry's sound distraction with praise, then it takes
just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to train your
dog to not misbehave (even in your absence) (Just 15
seconds this morning to train my 10 week old puppy to
lie quietly and let me clip his nails).
Using Jerry's scientific method (sound distraction /
praise / alteration / variation) it takes just minutes
to train you dog to respond to your commands.
What a pleasure it was for me to see my 6 week old
puppy running as fast has his wobbly little legs would
carry him in response to my recall command-and he
comes running every time I call no matter where we are
or what he is doing.
At ten weeks old now, my puppy never strains upon
his leash thanks to Jerry's hot & cold exercises and
his Family Pack Leadership exercises.
Jerry has discovered that if you scold your dog, if you
scream at him, if you intimidate him, if you hurt him,
if you force him then his natural response is to oppose
you.
Is Jerry a nut?
It doesn't make any difference to me whether he is or not.
It is a logical fallacy to judge a person's ideas based
upon their personality. As far as dogs are concerned, Jerry
wears his heart upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply when
he hears of trainers forcing, intimidating, scolding or
hurting dogs.
More than that, he knows that force is not effective
and that it will certainly lead to behavior problems;
sometime problems so severe that people put their
dogs down because of those problems.
I believe that it is natural for humans to want to control
their dog by force. Jerry knows this too. We have all been
at our wits' end, haven't we?
Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In scientific
literature it is referred to allelomimetic behavior. Dogs
respond in like kind to force; they respond in like kind
to praise.
Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him what he
wants most-your kind attention. Give him your praise.
You will be astonished at how your dog 's anxiety will
dissipate and how their behavior problems will dissipate
along with their anxiety.
Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits' End
Training Method as a scientific principle just as you
would the law of gravity and you will have astounding
success.
Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity.
If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get a sweet
little Magwai; if you don't you will surely get a little
gremlin (anyone see The Gremlins?).
--Larry
----------------------
Post by junoexpressJerry admits he saw Miller on TV when he was 11,
and in a family raising Great Danes. He says he
never read that book, and though I doubt that,
it simply doesn't matter.
Oh, you mean like when you go HOWET in
pubic with that egg on your face?
Here's Dr. Larry Male writing to Dr. Miller as
posted on his website PRYOR to studying my manual:
Dr. Larry Male (a.k.a. TooCool) ruminates
on Dog Behavior and Dog Training
Dr. Larry Male, Engineer, Scientist and
Mathematician, writes to Dr. Miller about
his dog Duke, the importance of DOG-MASTER(R),
and his opinion on other dog "training" methods.
Dear Dr. Miller,
It was such a pleasure for me to talk with
you on the phone this morning.
I never did see your television appearances
although they were well within my era. I think
that I am perhaps 15 years your junior. I wish
I had seen them though.
It was a little ad in Dog Fancy, I think, that
I initially responded to back in 1992. I remember
that the wording seemed to be a bit like a snake
oil salesman, e.g., miraculous, magic learning
sound etc. But at that time, I was investigating
different dog training techniques and I could
easily afford a stamp to find out. But when I
received your literature, I immediately grasped
that this was important and scientific.
I already had my Golden when I received my DOG
MASTER kit and he was perhaps 2 years old at the
time. I had tried my best to train him, using the
choke chain dog training class once a week. Oh, I
should mention that I am currently a software
engineer, but I have a master's in zoology and a
doctorate in mathematics and biometrics.
Anyway, when I received your DOG MASTER System
book I was capable of understanding the magnitude
of your accomplishment.
I had such a great and immediate success that I dropped
out of the dog training class. For 9 more years my Duke
continued to learn more and more and more. He loved to
learn and to show off what he had learned. People were
so amazed at his behavior that they could not believe it.
He responded to complex commands, within
sentences spoken in a normal tone of voice.
To those watching, he must have seemed almost
human. His eyes were always upon me.
I remember that he would lie on the floor watching
me for hours. I could give him subtle hand signals
with my finger to make him sit up, lie down, stand,
stay etc. As he learned, I begin to make the hand
signals less and less obvious. And he learned to
respond to whisper commands. Oh, it was so much
fun and rewarding.
It has been two years now since Duke passed on
and now I have decided to get a Pembroke Welch
Corgi. I have been rereading the DOG MASTER
System book. My poor little book is falling apart
now. But as I reread I begin to realize how much
more effective I could have been if I had followed
your directions more closely.
How much better it will be for me now, to study
and to practice before I get my puppy. When you
already have your dog, you are so anxious to try
the DOG MASTER, that you don't take the time to
grasp the importance of each element of your system.
As I now reread your book, I think to myself,
"How was he able to develop this complex system?"
But each of your directions is supported by an
analysis of dog behavior. These explanations are
so important to me. A human mind requires those
explanations in order to apply the DOG MASTER
System intelligently.
I have purchased a number of top books on clicker
training (operant conditioning). This is the current
rage in dog training. But these authors freely admit
in their books that they no answers for dog behavior
problems.
They don't know how to prevent them or cure them.
They don't seem to know how to housetrain a dog.
Everyday I see dogs walking their owners (dragging
them forward and backwards through the park). The
owners plead and yell and tackle and treat and give
up in frustration.
Their only consolation is that everyone else's
dog behaves the same. I feel so sorry for everyone.
I know that there exists a training system that will
produce a dream dog, but it isn't advertised or
available. The DOG MASTER System is so vastly
superior to any other alternative that I experience
a feeling of great loss that it isn't readily available.
You know, instead of attending dog training classes
before or at least when they get their puppy.
Teach them about dog behavior and show them how
to use DOG MASTER; stress how important it is
to use it precisely according to the directions.
Tell them that they might as well throw it in
the trash if they don't intend to use it properly.
I think that it would be so much easier to grasp
in a good video production. Then you could watch
it over and over. Hey, don't we all need that
timing, rhythm and repetition to learn?
(... and so on....)
Sincerely,
Larry M. Male
-------------
Post by junoexpressWhat does matter is we can employ sound to interrupt
thinking in a dog, and thus effectively reset the
desire to go thru a misbehavior....
OR you could SIMPLY PRAISE the "BAD" BEHAVIOR
till it's EXXXTINGUISHED, by OBSERVING and
working with the PATTERN of behavior as was
carefully described in my manual, DanO <{}: ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
"Estel J. Hines" <***@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:w86dna9lBfNZgbTdRVn-***@comcast.com...
Until i read the Jerry method of Bark reductioon,
it went something like this with our 11 month old
puppy "Yoshi"
Yoshi: Bark, bark,
us: HUSH Youshi
Yoshi Bark, bark...........
us: Hush Youshi
Yoshi BARK, BARK, BARK, .......
it stopped when Yoshi got tired barking
We decided to try the Jerry method:
Yoshi: BARK, BARK
US: GOOD Yoshi, Good Boy, who is it?
Yoshi Bark, Bark
US: It's ok, good boy Yoshi, We know them
Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that
I must say, it is so much more fun, when we
can praise him, to deal with things like this
Thanks Jerry
ps: We are just starting to go thru the Jerry
Papers, and learn how to live with our son
"Yoshi", whom we love very much.
--
Best Regards,
Estel J. Hines
------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"Brandy Kurtz" <***@wmconnect.com>
wrote in message news:***@posting.google.com...
Hello everyone! We have a 2 1/2 year old male
Well I just printed out the Amazing Puppy
Wizard info, so I haven't actually started
to train yet.
Today a salesman knocked on the door, and Pokey
was going balisstic. I calmly go to the window
to see who it is, and off-handly say Good Boy,
It's a stranger, Good Boy.
Pokey shut right up, gave me a quizical look,
and came and sat beside my feet!
OMG, I could not believe it!
I was totally floored, as this has been his
behavior since a pup. Just wanted to update,
and Pokey and I are hitting the sack...;)
Brandy
-----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Dave Cohen <***@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi.
Please understand that I do not know Jerry and
have spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of
his business. I simply want to thank him publicly
for one of his tips, with regards to separation
anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a
stuffed animal and then say good bye to my
own dog, but I am usually a very open minded
person, so I tried it. Well, lo and behold-
the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques,
and personally I think everyone who constantly
criticizes him is not understanding his logic.
Thank you Jerry!
---------------
BUT THAT AIN'T GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU DOG ABUSIN COWARDS;
IS IT, DanO:
In the following post Lucy made an ERROR in distracting
and waiting for the dog to LOOK AT HER, consequently
THAT'S HOWE COME SHE COULDN'T train Bonnie not to fear
thunder. After The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard CORRECTED her error, Lucy was able to CURE
Bonnies' FEAR OF THUNDER NEARLY INSTANTLY <{): ~ ) >
171 From: Lucy A. Afar
Date: Mon, Oct 11 2004 3:05 pm
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaHave you ever tried sound distraction and praise,
as Jerry recommends?
Better qualified people (and ones who are not certifiable) have
advocated these methods long before Jerry ever thought of it.
If this is so, then why are these methods being rejected and
ridiculed, in this group? Judging by the surprise caused here
by Lee's suggestion of praising an undesired behavior in order
to stop it, I'd have thought that these ideas were far from the
accepted norm in dog training.
I don't know if they do work with all the dogs; what I do
know is that they definitely work with MY dogs, and I'm a
bit surprised that far more experienced people than myself
are ready to dismiss and ridicule (without having even given
it a try) a method that is both nonviolent and has good
results, and which - as you put it - has been advocated by
"better qualified people", before Jerry and Lee.
Post by junoexpressUnfortunately, I cannot use sound as a distraction,
because Pan is extremely sensitive to it.
My dogs (especially Clyde) are pretty sensitive, too, but
the sound I use is not something very loud or startling.
I rarely need to use a louder sound than a clap of my hands -
just enough to distract them for a second, so that they look
at me, and at that moment I start to praise, and I praise for
as long as their eyes are on me.
Then, if they start doing again whatever they were doing,
I distract them again, trying to make the sound come from
a different direction, just as Jerry says in his manual.
They look at me again, and I praise them, again, for as long
as they are looking. I rarely need to distract them more than
twice, before they give up the undesired behavior and walk away,
go to sleep or do something else which is acceptable to me.
Post by junoexpressKhan was the same way, but I guess we did too good a job
with desensitizing him, 'cause he's pretty much bomb proof
these days. IOW, sound distractions don't work on him either,
because he isn't distracted by it.
Suja
Perhaps you could use something different as a distraction?
I remember reading that someone in this group was using a
bouncing ball, or something like that, to the same purpose.
How did you do, to make Khan "bomb proof"? I wish I could do
the same with Bonnie, who is afraid of thunder, firecrackers
and gunshots. Interesting that other loud sounds have no effect
on her, and she's totally indifferent to storms on TV, no matter
how loud the volume is.
Lucy
From: Lucy A. Afar
Date: Fri, Oct 15 2004 6:23 am
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaPost by junoexpressBetter qualified people (and ones who are not certifiable)
have advocated these methods long before Jerry ever thought
of it.
If this is so, then why are these methods
being rejected and ridiculed, in this group?
Because Jerry touts them as "one size fits all" methods.
They're not.
Have you tried them, Leah? Have you tried to follow exactly
Jerry's instructions, and failed to get the desired results?
Post by junoexpressThey're not even "first try" methods.
Why not? The basic idea is to get the dog to trust you, to
always look at you for leadership and guidance; what's wrong
with that?
Post by junoexpressFor example, some dogs are traumatized by sound distractions.
I certainly wouldn't throw a penny can at a dog unless I was
pretty darned sure that it wouldn't cause him to pee himself.
He never says that the sound should be startling, much less
traumatizing. The way I understand it, all you have to do is
praise as you use the sound, and the dog won't perceive it
as threatening.
After all, there are lots of louder sounds in the environment
(and Jerry does recommend making use of them, if they happen
at the right time, from the right direction). The idea is just
to DISTRACT the dog, so that he looks at you and you PRAISE him.
Read the manual, everything is there.
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaJudging by the surprise caused here by Lee's suggestion
of praising an undesired behavior in order to stop it,
I'd have thought that these ideas were far from the
accepted norm in dog training.
Oh, well, that part is nonsensical.
To us, perhaps - but, apparently, not to the dogs. My dogs
react exactly as Lee and Jerry say they should react. It
makes perfect sense to THEM.
Post by junoexpressIn certain circumstances, when it's used as classical
conditioning, it can work. But that involves far more
than just "praising an undesired behavior." Your praise
has to be more rewarding to the dog than the behavior,
enough so that it distracts him from it, and works best
if it's given *before* the behavior is in gear.
For example, if he's going after something on the ground,
you want to distract him before he actually puts it in his
mouth. If it's yummy enough, he'll wag his tail at your
praise while he munches on it, and be reinforced that it's
okay for him to do it.
I say, "Drop it, Clyde, good boy! What a GOOD BOY you are!"
And he drops it. True, not always - because I'm not yet doing
it as Jerry recommends - my human nature getting in the way. :-)
So sometimes I just open his mouth and take the thing out
of his mouth myself. Clyde has no problem with that.
Post by junoexpressRepeated enough times in a way that distracts him before
engaging in the behavior, the dog begins to associate the
*thought* of the behavior with your praise. So instead of
engaging in it, when he thinks about it he automatically
comes to you.
Actually, I distract him with a sound (often a clap of my
hands) and then he looks at me and I praise him. I praise
him for as long as he looks at me. If he resumes the behavior,
I distract him again, with a sound coming from a different
direction - and I praise him, until he either goes back to
whatever he was doing, or does something else. If he goes
back to the undesired behavior, I repeat the procedure, as
above - until he stops and does something acceptable, instead.
It's really simple - and it works. :-)
Post by junoexpressBut go ahead and praise a dog for chasing a
squirrel, and see where that gets you. :}
Well, no squirrels here, so I don't have this problem. :-)
But I'm doing it as he heads to the garbage can, and this
stops him. I don't need to pull his leash, he just stops
and turns back.
Post by junoexpressAnd Jerry's plagiarized ideas can't really be considered
"the norm." You'd have to search to find a trainer who
uses them.
That's exactly what my impression was, that they were NOT the
norm. As about "plagiarized" - this is a serious accusation;
could you give a reference, from whom did he plagiarize them?
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaI don't know if they do work with all the dogs; what
I do know is that they definitely work with MY dogs
I suppose if you're very good at reading dog body language,
and your timing is spot on, you could get good results with
this method.
But most dog owners aren't. Which is another reason why
? it's far from a "one size fits all" or "best" method.
I'm not a trainer, Leah; I have two dogs, one that has never
been a problem, the other who was nothing BUT a problem, for
me, who had never had a puppy, before.
Jerry's method worked, on both of them (Bonnie's barking has
become a problem mainly after Clyde arrived, because he did
stress her a lot).
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaMy dogs (especially Clyde) are pretty sensitive, too, but
the sound I use is not something very loud or startling. I
rarely need to use a louder sound than a clap of my hands
IME, dogs who will be distracted by the sound of a hand
clap are few and far between. At least, not after the
first two times.
Well, I KNOW that my dogs are special, in every way. :-)
Post by junoexpressCanine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
http://hometown.aol.com/dfrntdrums/myhomepage/index.html
Lucy
-----------
From: LeeCharlesKelley
Date: Fri, Oct 29 2004 10:02 am
Email: "LeeCharlesKelley" <***@aol.com>
Diane S.: > There are multiple approaches to teaching people,
Post by junoexpressand some will work better than others for any
given person.
Dogs aren't people. Human beings have far different cognitive
abilities and are able to grasp information via concepts, symbols,
language, etc. But to some extent, even with human beings, the
underlying learning process is always the same, no matter what
approach you take.
Diane S.: > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of
Post by junoexpressmethod is involved - that's just acceptance of
reality.
First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the method,
though anyone is welcome to make that leap. I said there was a
flaw in the underlying philosophy and its model of learning.
And it's funny that you believe that no one besides me (and
others like me) think there's a "one-size-fits-all" philosophy
of learning, because according to operant conditioning all
behavior is learned through a process of reinforcement.
Tell a die-hard o.p. person that all dogs learn differently.
"Nope," they'll say, "it's all about reinforcement."
And according to the alpha theory all dogs learn to adjust
their behavior in respect to their ranking in the social
hierearchy, and if they don't learn they need to be made
aware of your higher position, etc.
Do these approaches to training work
some of the time (approximately 40%)?
Yes, but that's because roughly 40% of all dogs are adaptable
enough to supply the missing piece of the puzzle themselves.
What's the missing piece?
Finding a way to reduce emotional tension.
You can look at this through an operant conditioning lens
and say, "Well, if that's really the case, then the dog is
learning due to reinforcement, because reducing emotional
tension would provide the dog with a positive experience,
in other words, reinforcement."
An alpha theorist would tell you that a dog feels less
emotional tension when he knows his place in the pack's
social structure, etc. But the underlying principle -
- that dogs learn through their emotions -- is always
the same, no matter what form of training is used.
My point is that it's better to know how learning really
takes place and approach it from that angle than to go
about it in a hit-and-miss manner, using various philosophical
approaches that don't give you an accurate picture of what's
taking place when a behavior is learned.
--------------
From: "Larry M Male" <***@yahoo.com>
To: "The Puppy Wizard" <***@EarthLink.Net>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Cocker with ear infection
Thanks Jerry,
I enjoyed the scientific discussion debunking
operant conditioning for teaching thinking animals.
Humans think by forming concepts. All of their
knowledge is held as a hierarchy of concepts
(more complex concepts defined in terms of
simpler ones). In my mind, to treat such a being
as a B. F. Skinner robot is criminal.
I don't believe that dogs hold their knowledge
as concepts as do humans but their ability to
think is unquestionable.
Operant conditioning doesn't utilize an animal's
ability to think. When you show a dog what you
want them to do, then they are able to grasp the
problem; they are able to think about it and to
integrate possible solutions into their mind.
But with operant conditioning a trainer is actually
hiding the problem to be solved from the animal.
For example, it is good for your dog's attention to
be upon you. When heeling, he will notice your
movements, your subtle hand signals, your facial
expressions and he will immediately sense your
next command. But the clicker trainers have forgotten
the reasons why a dog's attention should be upon you.
So they condition a dog to unnaturally cock his head
to stare upward at you. The dog doesn't appreciate
the meaning of this and neither does the trainer. Since
this unnatural behavior is prized in the obedience ring,
the clicker trainers are motivated to condition it.
Don't you think that the "high five" hand shake that
clicker trainers use to motivate novices looks like a
Nazi salute (an unthinking reflex). It is not at all
like a warm hand shake from a loving companion, is it?
Some of your testimonials bring tears to my eyes. I
love to see how some "thinking" people appreciate
your methods.
--Larry
--------------------
"Speech is a mirror of the soul:
as a man speaks, so is he."
Publilius Syrus, First century B.C., Maxim 1073
"We are what we do."
From: Marshall Dermer (***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaWhile the concept of shake cans is not new,
I haven't read any other advice that says to
praise immediately regardless of what the dog
does next (the common advice is to praise once
the dog is doing a desired behaviour or at least
stopped the unwanted behaviourbehaviour), this
is unique to Jerry (and Marilyn) and from my own
experiences is an important part of the process.
And how do we know this aspect of his advice is right?
Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.
--Marshall
(Also, it is best to killfile posts
from the few regulars here who are
either ill-tempered, ill-mannered,
or just plain ill.),
--Marshall
Subject: Subject changed: JUMPING / MOUTHING
On PEOPLE (Ninnyboy)
26 From: Marshall Dermer -
Date: Tues, Aug 14 2001
Email: dermer @alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer)
In article <***@posting.google.com>
***@yahoo.com (Matthew Burnside) writes:
Dear Matt:
Many have offered Jerry constructive advice
but Jerry has failed to profit from it.
My sincere advice is to filter out Jerry's posts.
--Marshall
PS: I have put "Ninnyboy" in the header
for many of us filter posts with this term.
The term indicates that the post is about Jerry.
I have read rpdb for about five years.
Consequently, I urge newbies to attend to the
civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars
from whom I have learned much.
They include:
Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser,
Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes, Lynn Kosmakos,
Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle
Moore, Robin Nuttall, Denna Pace, John
Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith,
Jane Webb, and Terri Willis.
**(EVERY WON of them got VERY LONG
POSTED CASE HISTORIES Of ACCUTE
CHRONIC INCURABLE MENTAL ILLNESS
an HURTIN INTIMIDATIN an MURDERIN
INNOCENT DEFENSELESS DUMB CRITTERS
an LYIN AbHOWET IT.)
Marshall Lev Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior
Analysis Specialty/Department of Psychology/
University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/Milwaukee,
WI 53201
Office Phone: 414-229-6067/ Home Phone:
414-332-8606
***@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me.
But if I am only for myself, what am I?"
_The Talmud_
------------------------------
YOU'RE FRAUDS, drs. p. and dermer!
Either DEFEND your LIES, ABUSE, And Degrees, or
get the heel HOWETA THIS BUSINESS <{}: ~ ( >
From: ***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer)
Date: 15 May 2002
Subject: Re: Jerry Howe
In article
Post by junoexpressSo I downloaded your Wits End today,
and I have started reading, and I
am planning on using it from now on
see what results I get.
Marisa you have much hard reading ahead of you
because Jerry's manual is verbose and spends
about as many lines condeming other approaches
as describing what to do.
Post by junoexpressJust thought I'd share. I'll post an update
later on as I have trained with it a bit. I
hope it helps to make her even better
than before. I don't want any accidents
with biting in my house!
And I hate negitive training, and bribes.
Different events function as rewards for different
dogs. Some dogs seek praise, some seek petting, and
some seek food.
If you are lucky your dog will value all
three, but don't count on it.
I doubt any major publishing house
would distribute Jerry's manual
because it is so verbose, so here
you find Jerry giving it away.
There is some wisdom in his manual but IMHO
there is even more wisdom in clicker training
approaches which are positive and though they
use food, food need not always be presented.
My favorite video, so far, is Karen Pryor's
_Clicker Magic_.
*(karen MURDERED her own DEAD KAT On AccHOWENTA
she COULDN'T CLICKER TRAIN IT not to shit an piss
in her stovetop).
Perhaps you can view it through your public library.
*(You think karen got a video of herself
MURDERIN her own DEAD KAT she COULDN'T TRAIN?)
The major pet supply retailers sell clickers
for about $2.
*(INDEED? You can get empty soda cans FOR FREE
an put a couple pebbles in it for NUTHIN.)
Also, try a keyword search with "clicker training"
at www.google.com as well as "Jerry Howe" or the
name of his method.
Then ask yourself this question:
Why is there so much interest in "clicker training"
and so little interest in Jerry's method?
--Marshall
PS: Finally, note Jerry's incivil responses to this
post. BTW, I don't read Jerry's follow-ups.
Marshall Lev Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior
Analysis Specialty/Department of Psychology/
University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/Milwaukee,
WI 53201 Office Phone: 414-229-6067/ Home Phone:
414-332-8606 ***@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"I basically (and finally) applied my favourite
design principle that perfect is the enemy of
good. Nothing is perfect, but many things are
good." Sitaram Iyer http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/
----------------------
"Different events function as rewards for
different dogs. Some dogs seek praise, some
seek petting, and some seek food. If you are
lucky your dog will value all three, but don't
count on it."
Seems professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM 'NO!' Into
ITS Face For Five Seconds and LOCK IT In A Box For
Ten Minutes Contemplation" dermer DON'T UNDERSTAND
the SCIENCE of Behavior and the UNIVERSALITY of
Pavlovian CONDITIONING <{}: ~ ( >
From: "Marisa" <***@hotmail.com>
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002
Subject: one day
I started some of the simple techniques in
Jerrys manual today.
The family pack exercise.... come command.....
that's all so far though.
I did get the proper equipment as well.
20 foot leash, cans with pennies partially
crushed, flat collar, etc.
I have also stopped any negative reinforcment
such as loud "No" and "Bad girl Sonique!"
(Sonique is my Jack russell) and holding her
back, which I normally MUST do or she'll jump
and nip sometimes, but always jumping and barking.
Already tonight some has started working.
When someone came to the door, Sonique
went nuts as usual.
I said "Thank you Sonique!"
"It's o.k. girl, thank you!"
And we got a total of about 6 barks and then
no jumping on guests, no biting, growling
or the worst, the continued barking she
normally does.
She accepted my praise, and trooted around,
still excited over guests, but she was WAY
more under control.
Even my roomates noticed this.
She repeated this same thing
without all her normal fuss later
when another two friends came over.
So I do need more time, going to keep with it
another day, another month whatever until I
know I am getting results, although I must say,
so far I am impressed with my dog.
She really responds to praise better than
she ever has responded to treats as distraction
from the guests and doorbell, or me yelling
"bad girl! go away now! shoosh up!" all the time.
I am also verbally praising her everytime
she makes eye contact with me. so hopefully
things will continue going well!-
- Marisa
-------------
From: "0513chgo" <***@nixspam.net>
Date: Thu, 16 May 2002
Subject: Re: Jerry Howe
Marshall Dermer wrote in message ... >
In articleSsyE8.20247$***@news01.bloor.is.
net.cable.rogers.com>
Post by junoexpressPost by SujaSo I downloaded your Wits End today,
and I have started reading, and I am
planning on using it from now on and
see what results I get.
Marisa you have much hard reading
ahead of you because Jerry's manual
is verbose and spends about as many
lines condeming other approaches as
describing what to do.
Please leave Marisa be and let her be happy
with training her dog the way she wants to!
--------------
From: "Jerry Howe" <***@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Jerry Howe
He CAN'T.
He's fighting for his career and reputation...
he's F'd.
Jerry.
"Marshall Dermer" <***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>
wrote in message news:9ihtee$7ib$***@uwm.edu...
From: Paul B (***@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 00:13:28 PST
Hello Marshall,
The way I view it from my observation of how
my dogs react is that the distraction interrupts
the dogs thought, not for good or bad, just
interrupts, the dog is therefore distracted for
a second and then will either continue the
behaviour or do something else.
The praise reassures the dog that the sound
distraction is not a threat or punishment,
however if everytime the dog resumes a
particular behaviour it's distracted immediately
(and praised immediately for reassurance) then
it quickly decides this behaviour is not fulfilling
and it ceases.
A dog will offer another behaviour in it's place
and if that is acceptable to us then we let it be
otherwise the distraction continues until a suitable
alternate behaviour is offered.
One example, Sam used to jump up on me
when I arrived home, I would shake can to
distract him right at the moment he was
about to jump up, after about 4 repetitions
he tried sitting and offering me his paw, of
course this was fine so I let it be.
While the concept of shake cans is not new,
I haven't read any other advice that says to
praise immediately regardless of what the dog
does next (the common advice is to praise once
the dog is doing a desired behaviour or at least
stopped the unwanted behaviour), this is unique
to Jerry (and Marilyn) and from my own experiences
is an important part of the process.
Post by junoexpressThanks Paul! He does recommend praising
a dog for barking, but he appears to recognize
that this may not work and so distraction
There really is NOTHING new about the advice above!
Nuthin EXXXCEPT HOWE IT'S DONE.
From: Marshall Dermer (***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-10
Post by junoexpressHi Lynn,
I used to have a barking problem with my
German Shepherd Dog a couple of years ago.
I tried several things recommended to me by
different trainers, and nothing was working.
When I read that section of Jerry's Manual,
I thought the same way you did.
"What???? PRAISE her for barking?" It sounded
counterproductive, but I had tried everything else
I'd heard so I thought I'd try it too.
Next time she went nuts at a person walking by
outside, I told her, "Good job! Good girl! You are
such a good protector!" And instead of continuing
the barking, she came to me for a belly rub! She
will still bark (she's a guard dog, that's her job),
but after one bark, she knows she's done her job
to warn me by my praise, and she stops.
Jenn,
Could you be so kind as to post here the
section from Jerry's manual where he
writes that you should JUST praise the
dog when it barks?????????
As I recall, I thought he first advocates
distracting the dog from barking, with keys
or the soft sound of pennies in a can, before
praising.
Perhaps you can tutor me regarding
Jerry's system.
Thanks in advance!
--Marshall Dermer
PS: I don't read Jerry's posts but I look
forward to your post.
From: Marshall Dermer (***@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Clicker training "stay"
Date: 2001-06-21
Post by junoexpressHi, DogStar716, sorry you feel this way about
me. I hope I can change your mind in the future,
as I love reading your posts, and value (and
have used) some of your advice.
BWWWWWEEEJAJAJAJAJAJAAAAA!!!
Post by junoexpressAs for my post to Jer, I am just attempting
to get a plain answer about something instead
of a trash- fest. I just want to know if it can be
done.
Jenn Standring
I'm not Jerry but sure you could use a clicker to
distract a dog but that is not the purpose of a clicker.
You can also use a teaspoon to cut steak
but that is not the purpose of teaspoon!
--Marshall
"Dan Moore" <***@worldnet.att.net>
wrote in message news:fS2Lc.114567$***@bgtnsc05-news.ops.
worldnet.att.net...
Tracy,
What worked for me, in just one storm,
was to praise the dog after each clap
of thunder, telling him he's a Good Dog!
This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.
The next time it thundered, he did not even
react at all--you could not tell it was the
same dog as before.
There was more thunder just the other day,
and same thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no
cowering, whimpering, trying to hide at all,
it was that simple.
I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem
to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non-
abusive way of handling dogs WORKS.
Wonderfully.
Praise.
It's that simple.
Juanita
----------------
Post by junoexpressand we can by alternating commands with
simultaneous sounding install a command
subliminally by interrupting conscious
thought on the dog's part with the sound.
You mean install a conditional reflex a la Pavlov.
Post by junoexpressTo extinguish a misbehavior, you sound without speaking.
NO, DanO. Perhaps Dr. Miller does THAT. I DON'T on
accHOWENTA to do THAT would be PUNISHMENT and PUNISHMENT DERANGES
BEHAVIOR accordin
to B.F. Skinner, Watson, Mary Cover Jones, Sam Corson and Jerry Howe
<{}'; ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressBoth installing and extinguishing require 4
occurrences, in different places, which generalizes
it in the dog's mind.
Seems Desmond Morris and Elizabeth Marshall Thomas
would have EZily noticed THAT, DanO. Perhaps you'll
contact them and ask their OBSERVATIONS <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressBoth Miller and Howe describe this.
Yeah. But ALL the EXXXPERTS like dr. ian dunbar
and dr. nicholas dodman and dra. karen overall
and dra. patricia mcconnell and dra. katherine
houpt et all AIN'T NOTICED that, DanO <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressThe similarities are uncanny.
INDEEDY. Seems these university educated IDIOTS
ain't got the brains G-D gave a MONKEY <{): ~ ( >
"If I Knew It Would Be That Easy,
I Would Have Done This A Long Time Ago
Saving Myself 5 Years Of Dealing With
A Bouncy, Over Excited Dog!, Jenn.
--------------------------
Post by junoexpressSo now, I have 3 dogs who are all so well behaved,
they comply to hand signals, no sound or praise
required for all the 5 basic commands, come,sit,
down,stay and heel. And while an outsider drops
their jaw and wonders how this can be, the fact
is it's easier than one would think, and both
the technique, the science behind it, and how
to do it is all out there, for the taking.
Yeah. But you STILL won't tell THAT to the dog molestors.
Post by junoexpressAn archive of Howe's 2002 version can be found below.
Well FUCK YOU, DanO. If I WANTED the 2002 edition
circulated I'd be CIRCULATING IT. WOULDN'T I, Dano.
Post by junoexpressIt's much easier to read than his current website.
Oh, you mean it was LESS EMBARRASSING.
You think THAT was a ACCIDENT, DanO?
A Professor and a Veterinarian compliment Dr. Miller
Correspondence from two professionals
in field of canine studies...
Dear Dr. Miller:
Sometime ago you sent me a complimentary copy of
your book "The Secret of Canine Communication."
This book has been used extensively in the School
of Veterinary Medicine both by the faculty and the
student body. They have found this a very useful
text and have had much benefit from the opportunity
to review the fine work which you have done.
I do appreciate your kindness in sending me this
book. I will see that it is placed in our Veterinary
Medical Library for the full use of the faculty
and the student body of the school. I am sure that
many of the students will be interested in placing
order for copies of this book as they engage in the
practice of canine medicine.
Sincerely,
Wm. E. Jennings, Professor
Auburn University
School of Veterinary Medicine
-o-
Dear Dr. Miller:
The following review has been submitted to
New York City Veterinarian and should be
published in due course, at the discretion
of the Executive Editor:
**********
This is the unique training manual based upon
subliminal suggestion by means of a special
chain that is so constructed that when it is
shaken or thrown it takes advantage of certain
harmonic attributions of the dog, and training
takes place without leash restraint by means
of applying fundamental principles of conditioned
reflex psychology.
Apparent dramatic results have been obtained with
this approach to training, and it seems to render
more conventional approaches obsolete.
The reader who seeks a practical and thorough
lesson in applied canine psychology can learn
a great deal from the careful perusal of this
popularly written manual.
**********
So there you are. I trust it may be helpful to you.
Respectfully yours,
A. Barton, D.V.M.
Book Editor
New York City Veterinarian
--------------
Post by junoexpresstoo bad it was couched by such nonesense!
From: "TooCool" <larrymale @hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004
Subject: Dog Behavior Problems
What causes dog behavior problems? Well, first
of all, a dog doesn't know that his behavior is
a problem until you tell him so. But if you
address his behavior negatively then your dog
will tend to repeat it-that is just the nature
of dogs.
Unfortunately for us humans, our natural tendency
is to rebel with emotional outburst, intimidation
or force when our dog's behavior annoys us. But
we must bite our tongue and praise our dog instead.
You do not believe that your dog is out to get
your goat? Just begin to carefully analyze his
behavior. Take for instance the case of the
Mozart hating dog.
Whoever heard of such a thing? How could such a
bizarre behavior begin and become established? Who
knows for sure, but it could easily happen like this.
You are relaxing listening to your favorite Mozart
piece and your dog begins to play rowdily-he is
trying to attract your attention-but his commotion
annoys you.
You get upset and yell at him to shut-up.
Dogs are very sensitive to your emotions-positive
emotions calm them-negative emotions upset them.
But your negative attention has just given your
dog a lesson on how to get your attention.
How many times do think that it will take to make
this behavior automatic? Once, maybe twice is sufficient.
Does your dog act up when you are on the phone?
Why? Does he rush doors? Why? Does he jump up on
you or others? Why? Does he strain upon his leash?
Why?
What can you do to prevent such behaviors
and what can you do to cure them once they
have begun.
The classical conditioning and operant conditioning
schools of thought will advise you to condition your
dog to respond with some other, more acceptable,
behavior to the stimulus which instigates the misbehavior.
Elaborate schemes are often devised. For instance
condition your dog to run to his crate to get a
treat when guests arrive to prevent him from
jumping upon your guests.
But this school of thought has nothing to
say about preventing such behavior problems
in the first place. And what if you don't
have any treats left? Or what if you are at
your neighbor's house with him?
And what if you wished that your dog would
just sit quietly when guests arrived instead
of each time having to bribe him to come to
his crate?
The force training school of thought will advise
you to scold, intimidate or by some means punish
your dog for what you deem to be misbehavior.
You do not believe that this approach may cause
your dog to dislike or possibly hate you? You do
not believe that your dog will find other, perhaps
more obnoxious, behaviors in order to get even with
you?
This school of thought also has nothing to recommend
upon how to prevent these behavior problems in the
first place.
I recommend that you learn the value of praise
and kind emotions toward your dog. Throw away
your treats and your hickory sticks and raise
a dog who is calm and loving and who never gets
into any trouble.
Learn how to use sound distraction combined with
praise to quickly condition your dog to avoid
behaviors that you dislike; by quickly, I mean
in just a few minutes. Learn to teach your dog
commands in minutes using sound, praise,
alternation and variation while taking advantage
of a dog's natural allelomimetic behavior).
Please study The Puppy Wizard's Wits' End Training Method.
--Larry
-----------
INDEED? Dr. Miller's work is SIMILAR, yet VERY DIFFERENT, as is
William Campbell's. William
Campbell worked for years as SALESMAN for Dr. Miller. GIVEN THAT, Bill
CANNOT train dogs nearly as
proficiently as my GREEN TRAINED STUDENTS, like
YOURSELF, Danny.
IN FACT, I'd tried to contact Dr. Miller many years
ago. My letter was returned unopened. I was THANKING
HIM for being the ONLY other COMPETENT TRAINER in the WHOWEL WILD
WORLD and was ASKING HIM
HOWE we can teach folks who INTENTIONALLY
IGNORE effective training methods in preference for
SYSTEMIC ABUSE, Danny.
I can train ANY human to be a DECENT DOG TRAINER, even to become a
EXXXPERT
PROFESSIONAL dog trainer, just through studying my
manual... HOWEver, I CANNOTTEACH "ANY HUMAN"
to be a DECENT, PATIENT, KINDLY HUMAN BEING,
and THATis the #1 PREREQUISITE critteria to USING MY method, Vs Dr.
Miller's METHOD.
DECENT HUMAN BEINGS DO NOT GET RID OF / MURDER "ADOPTED / RESCUED"
dogs as YOU DONE, DanO <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressLook again folks, at the original author,
a more lucid and enlightened individual
at 80 than most of us can hope to be.
Well Danny, you NEVER HOPED to be DECENT.
That was MY hopes for you, and you REJECTED IT
just like HOWE paul e. schoen done. Perhaps THAT'S
on accHOWENTA we must come to self realization
as part of the PROCESS of HEELIN?
Re: Musings on the Rainbow Bridge
Post by junoexpressFirst -
Debbie- sigh, hug
be good to yourself, stay strong.
I could imagine that some of the dogs we've
hosted might be there, some not.
I guess, it'd be up to the dog waiting, who it'd be
waiting for. It might be not even a human it waits
for. It is a comforting concept, Rainbow Bridge,
and a beautiful poem.
Wouldn't both owners have to die simultaneously
for this choice to be made?
Who's to say they couldn't greet both at their passings.
Might say hello to first, but then wait for the second.
Then make sure you meet beyond?
I know a couple of unplanned adoptions who did not
work out I don't expect to see, but a packfull of other
critters, I do hope to.
so they gonna crate humans and put shock collars
on them if they don't get along?
pickup their poop? (do spirits even eliminate?)
Enjoy This Day!
SEE?
From: "A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet"
Date: 17 Oct 2006
Subject: Re: Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training
HOWEDY danoas,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard AIN'T gonna run you into the grHOWEND like
HOWE HE does to the rest of these pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin animal murderin pathetic malignant punk
thug coward active acute chronic long term incurable
mental cases and professional dog trainin FRAUDS an
SCAM ARTISTS.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard only gives the apupriate TOOLS
necessary to do the work effieiently.
Subject: Behaviorism
Dr. Von Hilsheimer Wrote On 10/17/06:
You know, Jerry, if you didn't write in such a hebephrenic style you
might cause more people
to be kind to animals.
The issue of what is BEHAVIORISM is simply answered; just pick up the
book, BEHAVIORISM, by
John B. Watson; or CUMULATIVE RECORD, by BF
Skinner.
There are at least two strong facts in each book which
broaden BEHAVIORISM from Pavlovian Stimulus-Response to a fully
scientific base.
Watson notes that all of the experimental work reported
in his book was done by Mary Cover Jones, who is the
mother of systematic scientific psychology. Jones was
never so narrow as Watson.
His famous patient, Little Albert, was actually her
patient, little Peter. Alas I can't find any of her
work in print, so you have to rely on the WWW. I am
eternally jealous of an Indian colleague, Dr. Ratan
Singh, who actually met Mary Cover Jones whilst he
was taking a course with Professor Wolpe (another
major contributor to Behaviorism through his
RECIPROCAL INHIBITION THERAPY).
In his book, CUMULATIVE RECORD, Skinner's summation of his life and
work, there is an article by
Breland and Breland who applied Behaviorism to more
than 30 species - their work is the foundation for the
Sea Worlds.
In their article they point out that you must attend to
the evolutionary niche, the species' developmental history, the
personal history and the instincts of the
animal before you can effectively guide its behavior.
Yep, "instincts".
Not simple S-R at all.
If you want an effective chicken act, build in pecking and
scratching; if you want an effective pig act build in
rooting and head tossing; if you want an effective
doggie act build in pack behavior and emotional
warmth - dogs, Pavlov insisted, have souls, monkeys
do not.
Moreover, if a psychologist is using aversive
reinforcement (punishment) the psychologist
is simply being inefficient if not incompetent.
While Aylon and Azrin gave strong support to
aversive methods, there is no substitute for reward.
If you ever visit Key West, be certain to see the street shows. A chap
there has proved what an excellent
behaviorist he is by training house cats to perform
complex acts, just like the great cats in circuses - only
better.
No punishment is used, ever.
Alas, science doesn't always fit our dreams, relief from
aversion is a strong form of reward, but to use it you
must first use an aversive stimulus. We use it all of the
time quite naturally, we pull a blind down to relieve the
aversiveness of too bright light; we turn over in bed to
get to a more comfortable position; we eat to relieve
hunger and so it goes.
Relief of pressure in a choke collar is a relief from aversion.
The method is fraught with peril as the aversion must be
very light, else the typically deranging effect of punishment
(aversive stimulus) will occur.
IMO no competent psychologist will use a choke collar
(unless she is studying the effect of aversion). You
are much better off just to use reward. Punishment
(aversion) always has the potential to derange behavior.
It is NEVER needed, unless you are attacked by a leopard in a jungle
or suffer a similar result of poor
management.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. (Fellow,
Royal Society of Health)
Jerry, I recall that the last time I reviewed something
for you that one of your list members *(DOGMAN a.k.a.
gentleman jack morrison) accused you of simply
making up an authority. I have been listed in the real
Who's Who in SE&SW USA (Marquis Who's Who)
since 1982 and am presently in WW in the USA, WW
in Science and Technology, WW in Medicine and
Health Care, and WW in the World. You cannot buy
your way into these references.
My own website can be viewed at www.drbiofeedback.com
your name is not captured for a mailing list, there is
one ad selling a biofeedback device).
Also see http://www.psych.yorku.ca/femhop/Cover%20Jones.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behaviorism
http://www.bfskinner.org/SHBtext.pdf
"You're JUDGED BY the company you keep. When you
lie with pigs you'll awaken STINKIN like 'm. You're
only as good as your word. When you get BAGGED for
LYIN you're MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's
DADDY <{}: ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressA halti is steering,
No. The Halti tm and GLtm are pain fear force an
intimidation devices devised by veterinary ethologists
dr. roger mugford as STOLEN from Dra. Alice DeGroote
who's original K-9 Kum-A-Long and another dr. in
conjunction with a N.A.D.O.I. animal abusin punk
thug coward.
The original design by Dr. Alice DeGroote and her
warmly competent INSTRUCTIONS for application of
the TOOL spawned for the rehabilitation of doggys
who'd been cruelly inhumanely viciHOWESLY jerked
an choked on slip an pronged spiked pinch choke
collars like Muttley and your own dogs (some of
whom BOUGHT THE doGdameneD FARM over your mishandlin
e.g. YOU MURDERED THEM).
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard's last conversation with Dra. Alice
DeGroote a few months ago revealed that she's
HEARTBROKEN over what the greedy vile animal
murderin punk thug cowards have done to bastardize
her TRULY GENTLE LEADER - K-9 Kum-A-Long tm, with
the advent of the intentional pain fear force and
intimdation infliction devices... Halti tm and GL
tm, which accHOWENTS for HOWE COME people find
much DIFFICULTY, OBJECTION and yes, even TERROR
when those hughely misunderstood devices are USED
AS INSTRUCTED by the "BEHAVIORISTS' who "invented"
them by simply DESIGNING IN what Dra. Alice DeGroote
INTENTIONALLY LEFT HOWET of her design as the INTENT
was NOT to be able to throw the dog assover bucket
AS INTENDED by the usurpers at N.A.D.O.I. (national
association of dog obedience instructors) who
developed the G.L. *(gentle leader BAH~!) and dr.
roger mugford who developed the HALTI - stole her
science an BASTARDIZED it for ignorameHOWESES like
you to be able to HURT an INTIMIDATE your dogs!
Post by junoexpressone cannot train with it if one wants an ability to correct.
You mean HURT the dog, dano?
There AIN'T NO SUCH THING as EFFECTIVE CORRECTION dano, otherWIZE you
an the rest of
these FRIENDS of yours would be BEGGIN folks to STUDY HOWE to NOT HURT
dogs to train them, eh
dano?
Post by junoexpressDoing so would be dangerous to the neck.
Well dano, would you CONsider puttin the lead UNDER
the dog's foreleg an flippin the dog assover bucket
AS INSTRUCTED by the GL (tm) manufacturer, dangerHOWES?
Post by junoexpressA reel leash and a halti is an accident waiting to happen.
That's sheer idiocy, dano. Your FEAR is the dog will
BOLT to the end of the long line an an break his neck
JUST LIKE HOWE so many of HOWER EXXXPERTS have done on a 6' leash and
pronged spiked pinch or
slip choke collars, dano.
If you REALLY want the GENTLEST force method,
perhaps you should invest in a nice SHOCK collar.
Despite the falsity of the term SHOCK, they create
a state of calm submissiveness like HOWE your punk
thug coward mental case pal the dog whisperer the
ces teaches, only AUTOMAGICKALLY <{}: ~ ) >
You may fulfill your shock collar needs by contactin
FRAUDreck hassan (could be he's a Islamo Fascist with
a name like that [better run a Flannigan Brannigan and
Ischovitch report on him] or his deeply imbedded terrorist pal tommy
sorenson, the alter ego of
handsome gentleman jack morrison aka DOGMAN aka
joey finnochiarrio, when he's not in dog / homosexual
murderin mode <{}: ~ ) >
Speakin of which, have you been followin the 'Muttley
is DEAD' thread, dano? We got LOTS of DEAD DOGS JUST LIKE Muttley here
abHOWETS, includin a couple
of your own 'NOT SO LUCKY' RESCUE dogs, eh dano?
Post by junoexpressA prong is not a torture device,
Of curse not. It only LOOKS like a midevil torture device.
Actually, it simulates the puppy's mommy gently
snatchin IT by the throat an throwin IT to the
grHOWEND in your typical alphalphal manner. Yes
indeedy, dano, Mother Nature makes cruel an
viciHOWES incompetent / unawares animal mommys JUST LIKE HOWE SHE
makes human mommy child
abusers. It's passed from generatiHOWEN to
generatiHOWEN, almost like GENETICS, but different.
IT'S CALLED ALLELOMIMETIC BEHAVIOR <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressbut an effective deterrent to sillyness if needed,
You mean HYPERACTIVITY, dano. That SILLINESS is
caused by jerkin an chokin and intimidatin the dog,
therefore it CAN BE EXXXTINGUISHED NEARLY
INSTANTLY simply by DOIN EVERYTHING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE your
FRIENDS do.
LIKE THIS:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
ARE YOU A DADDY, dano?:
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are
CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
Post by junoexpressand less likely to cause damage than a regular choke.
That's SHEER IDIOCY, dano. EVERYWON KNOWS the dog's neck is the
strongest muscle in the body. IF
you know HOWE to pupperly apply a slip choke
CORRECTION a la the ces, you'll quickly "MASTER Z
WALK" otherWIZE, you was CHOKIN it wrong.
Try it on your toddler if you LIKE, dano,
IT'S HARMLESS.
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely
Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat, Ferret, Goat, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horse Training Method Manual
<{} ; ~ ) >
Post by junoexpressProblem is most don't fit them high and
tight enough to work most effectively.
You mean to strike the dog in the larynx like a karate chop.
THAT'S HOWE COME the ces came up with his
"ILLUSION" (tm) CHOKE COLLAR APPLIANCE.
Post by junoexpressEither will provide some relief to a soar
shoulder from disorderly lunging,
Dogs lunge disorderlyWIZE when they're TRYIN
TO ESCAPE bein jerked an choked by pathetic
miserable stinkin lyin dog abusin punk thug
coward active acute chronic life long incurable
malignant mental cases with "SOAR" shoulders,
REMEMBER dano?
ANY dog CAN BE TRAINED NEARLY INSTANTLY not to PULL if you simply STOP
CHOKIN HIM. And you
AIN'T gotta slather your arse with bacon grease <{}: ~ ( >
Post by junoexpressbut as a Halti looks like a muzzle, it will provide
for less socialization, which can lead to other
unwanted issues.
That's SHEER IDIOCY, dano.
Post by junoexpressBeen there, done that.
INDEED?
From: dan
Date: Mon, Mar 14 2005 12:00 pm
Email: "dan" <***@netscape.net>
Size means a difference in everything, from amount of
food and cleanup, to space required, hieght of fence, etc.etc.
Training is a contoversial subject...on one end of the
spectrum, there's the correct and control crowd, (see:
www.leerburg.com) and on the other, the positive only
clicker crowd.... as well as the controversial Wit's End
Method, worth trying to understand see:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.pets.dogs.behavior/browse_frm...
Generally, smaller breeds live longer but if all goes
well, you'll learn much from either, and grieve when
they pass on. Either will provide an alert to danger,
a companionship which is pricelss, and become a
family member.
There's the Monks of New Skete: http://www.dogsbestfriend.com/
another source of GSD info.
Consider a rescue, they are so grateful. ***(like Muttley)
Hundreds of thousands are waiting. petfinder.com
No matter the size, find a vet who uses more current vaccine protocols
and uses titres instead of blanket
annual boosters. Vaccinosis is real.
Either size, this is a huge commitment of your time, money, attention
and future, do not go into it without
some homework.
Good Luck!
---------------
DOG TRAININ AIN'T LUCK, dano <{} : ~ ( >
IS IT, dano <{) : ~ ( >
4 From: dan
Date: Thurs, Apr 21 2005 7:20 am
Email: "dan" <***@netscape.net>
Well Jim,
i hope you know i was not recommending an ecollar,
only understanding and sympathsizing with the sound
of a distant crash in the woods causing a desire for a
remote control.
Regretably, it really set tpw off.
When they can't hear you whistling or calling,
it's very frustrating.
You can perimeter train...and a simply way to do it is
with a squirt bottle of your urine, hear me out. Smells,
they get. This marks your territory.
Not only will your dog know where your territory is,
strays and other critters will understand they are
intruders.
I also let pups sleep with the day's spent tshirt, mine.
Smells they get. A simple way to let bonding happen easily...
Hmm, I see this only has a send to moderator button.
Gee, I hope it passes inspection!
------------
THAT'S SHEER IDIOCY, dano <{}: ~ ( >
Yeah, danny, IT PASSED the "MODERATOR" but IT
DON'T PASS The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES
And Horsey Wizard <{}: ~ ( >
You can TRAIN ANY dog not to chase critters IN WON DAY, dano:
LIKE THIS:
Subject: Chasing squirrels
From: lindalee
Date: Sat, Jan 21 2006
Email: "lindalee" <***@msn.com>
I have not posted to the group for awhile but want to
share my success of teaching my dog Sunshine, who
has a very high prey drive, to not go after squirrels when
on a walk.
It took a few trials but he can now walk right
past squirrels running up a tree or in a yard.
Using Jerry Howe's approach I used a sound to get his
attention when he saw a squirrel and then praised him
and kept on walking past the squirrel.
Where we live in Michigan we lots of squirrels and
he was always wanting to chase them up a tree.
Jerry's approach of sound and praise really works.
I think the people who discount his methods have never
tried the method because it works everytine.
Sometimes it takes a little practice to get the sound
from different directions but I was able to change
Sunshine's behavior in just a week after we moved
back to Michigan.
Sunshine is a very sensitive dog so any physical
corrections just won't work but using sound and
praise he is a really great dog who opens doors,
picks up things I drop, and and helps me a lot.
If you have a behavior problem with your dog get a
copy of Jerrry's manual and solve your problem!
------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: ***@cfl.rr.com
To: ***@aol.com
Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.
My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.
When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.
I will write to Amanda about the video.
I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.
Thanks again
Paul
---------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Hi, Jerry.
I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree
with (or even understand) 100% of what you say in this
manual ... BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few
reps and you could have knocked me down when I tried
the exercise with "drop" and, after a few reps in
different spots Darwin practically *threw* the rubber
ball at my feet on command. He's still not perfect
(just a pup, after all, and he's stubborn enough to
want to push and test me a little bit more).
For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have)
how your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few
folks, but that woman who advocates ear pulling and
beating with sticks deserves everything she gets. Even
if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that.
(Darwin fetches enthusiastically and instinctively,
tho').
Best, ben
---------------------
"Nevyn" <***@badmama.com.au> wrote in message
HOWEDY Group,
Here some SUCCESS STORIES I've had
using JERRY'S MANUAL
1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, aggressive,
pulled on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw,
fought between each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerry's
manual, they were calm, friends, my companions.
2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK",
the girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the
moment I dropped him by their noses.
3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping
at the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRY'S
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVEN'T BARKED ONCE!
Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND
WELCOMED HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !
4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH -
lock him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS
AND HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE!
5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT -
HAD TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK -
ONE WEEK ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR
TOLD ME TO PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS
FOR SALE !
Quite amazing to - I thought they were just
dull coloured dogs, but after I had removed
the fear and anxiety their hairs coloured up
amazingly.
6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER
BALL! She carried it around all day and night - 3
DAYS on jerrys MANUAL and she now DROPS
it when u ASK her to!
BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!
Nevyn
--------------------
Violence Is A Learned Behavior
Abuse / Fear / Aggression / Hyperactivity / Shyness /
Depression / Suicide Attempts AIN'T Genetic Problems,
They're SPIRITUAL PROBLEMS, Passed On From WON GeneratiHOWEN Of
Abuser To The Next, Like
The 100th Monkey Washin Fruit In The Stream.
After A While It's Not Just NORMAL, It's -OBLIGATORY-
To Do OtherWIZE Would Be
DISRESPECTFUL
Of Your Parental Teachins.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy
Of Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear, Hate,
Reflex, Self Will, Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice,
Cowardice, Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment,
Embellishment, Guilt, Anger, Hopelessness,
Helplesness, Aversion, Attraction, Inhibition, Revulsion,
Repulsion, Change, Permanence, Enlightenment,
Insult, Attrition And Parental / ReligiHOWES / Societal
CONDITIONING;
YOU ARE THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
There Are NO GRAY AREAS
Between
RIGHT And WRONG.
"Only The Unenlightened Speak Of
Wisdom And Right Action As Separate,
Not The Wise.
If Any Man Knows One, He Enjoys The Fruit Of Both.
The Level Which Is Reached
By Wisdom
Is Attained Through Right Action
As Well.
He Who Perceives That The Two Are One
Knows The Truth." -
- Bhagavad Gita, Adapted By Krishna,
With Permission, From His Own
FREE COPY Of
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's
100% Consistently
Nearly Instantly Successful
FREE
WWW Wits' End Training Method Manual <{) '; ~ ) >
"A Cheerful Heart Is Good Medicine, But
A Crushed Spirit Dries Up The Bones,"
Proverbs 17:22
Disciple Paulie Sez:
"No One Understands How Wits End Training
Really Works; They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey
And don't Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method
That Deals With Any Situation And The Foundation
Is Built On Trust And Understanding.
I've never forced my dogs to do anything,
I tell them they are good dogs and they
seem to follow me, onceI told them they
were bad dogs and they ran away from me,
now I only ever tell them they are good dogs
and they always are, always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say
"good dog" sincerely at the end of the request and
I bet you'll find your dog thinking then responding
everytime.
A Bit Of Respect Works Wonders,
The Same Rule Applies
To Every Aspect Of
The Relationship With Your Dog.
Obedience And Affection Are Not Related,
if They Were Everyone Would Have
Obedient Dogs.
I Have Found Giving Dogs "Payment" In Advance i.e.
"Sam sit goodboy" Makes The Dogs WANT TO RESPOND,
After All, All Dogs Want To Be "Good Dogs" And If
You Tell Them They Are Good Then They Feel An
Obligation To Obey Your Request.
Telling Sam He's A Good Dog AFTER He Sit's
Apart From Being Too Late Is Also A Gamble
Because If He Doesn't Sit Then There's No
Positive Interaction.
Paul
"Think Not That I Am Come To Send Peace On Earth:
I Came Not To Send Peace,
But A Sword.
"For I Am Come To Set A Man At Variance
Against His Father,
And The Daughter Against
Her Mother,
The Daughter In Law Against
Her Mother In Law
And The Scholar Against
His Professors.
"And A man's Foes Shall Be They
Of His Own HOWEshold."
The Puppy Prophet <{); ~ ) >
All Truth Passes Through Three Stages.
First, It Is Ridiculed.
Second, It Is Violently Opposed.
Third, It Is Accepted As Being Self-Evident
-Arthur Schopenhauer-
"Thank You For Fighting The Fine Fight--
Even Tho It's A Hopeless Task, In This
System Of Things. As Long As Man Is
Ruling Man, There Will Be Animals
(And Humans!) Abused And Neglected. :-(
Your Student," Juanita.
"If You've Got Them By The Balls
Their Hearts And Minds
Will Follow,"-
-John Wayne-
"Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens!"
-Friedrich Schiller.
"Against stupidity the Gods themselves contend in vain."
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME THEY GOT ME NHOWE!
"Ye shall know the truth,
and the truth shall make you mad." -
~Aldous Huxley.
Oh, and not that you'd FORGET your BEAST PAL,
In Love And Light,
I Remain Respectfully, Humbly Yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey,
SpHOWES And Horsey Wizard <{} ; ~ ) >